Transcript of What’s Podcasting Got To Do With Marketing?
John Jantsch: This episode of The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by Klaviyo. Klaviyo is a platform that helps growth-focused eCommerce brands drive more sales with super-targeted, highly relevant email, Facebook and Instagram marketing.
John Jantsch: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Guy Kawasaki. He’s the Chief Evangelist of Canva, a great online design service, and executive fellow of the Haas School Of Business at the University of Cal Berkeley. And he has the distinction of being on my show for about the sixth time, probably. I think we talked about this last time you were on my show. I think I’m the only podcast or to interview you for both versions of Art of the Start.
Guy Kawasaki: And that and a nickel will buy you… Well, not even a cup of coffee, but yeah.
John Jantsch: So, we’re going to talk about a number of things today. It’s been far too long. Guy’s most recent book is called Wise Guy: Lessons From a Life, so we’re going to touch on that. But I always like to get a little update on Canva, so why don’t we start there? As an evangelist, this is your only job, right, is to talk about it?
Guy Kawasaki: Well, I also have four children, but who’s counting? So, I’m the Chief Evangelist of Canva, and for those of you who may not have heard of Canva, it is an online graphics design service based out of Sydney, Australia. And the essence of Canva is that it has democratized designs that basically anyone can create beautiful designs for social media, posters, business cards, presentations, t-shirts, whatever you want. And I’ll just tell you that, in the month of October, Canva made 139 million images, so we make about four or five million images per day at Canva for people all around the world.
John Jantsch: So, there are dozens of folks that have tried to crack that nut. Why do you suppose Canva was so successful? I mean, there are other online design tools that are been around a long time that haven’t been that successful.
Guy Kawasaki: Well, I think that one of the key decisions was that we decided that we’re going to make every conceivable design type, and within a design type, hundreds of templates. So, what I mean by those two words is that, a design type is a square Instagram image, right? A design type is a 16X9 presentation. A design type is a Kindle book cover. So, when you come to Canva you say, “All right, so I want to create a Pinterest pin. I want to create the Etsy store. I want to create the eBay store cover photo. I want to create the cover photo for my LinkedIn account.” And all of those, we have the optimal dimensions already figured out, and within those design types, we have hundreds of templates. So, you find a template that you like, you upload your own photo or you use one of our stock photos, you change the text, and I promise you, in the time it takes to boot Photoshop, you could finish a design in Canva.
John Jantsch: I totally agree with you. I mean, the ease of just saying… For example, if you’re working with a small business client like we do and they are on six different platforms, and you need a header image for each and all the things, every single one is a little different size, and so it’s just so convenient to just go boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. So, I know [inaudible 00:04:04].
Guy Kawasaki: I mean, John, I don’t know if you realize this, but even more convenient than going boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, we have a feature called Magic Resize. And what Magic Resize says is, “Okay, you did the basic design for one. Now, we will resize this for all the other five platforms.”
John Jantsch: Oh, but I don’t know about that because that’s the $10 a month one, right? I’m not going to pay $10 a month [inaudible 00:04:29].
Guy Kawasaki: Oh, John, you’re killing me, John, bro. Your books are free, right?
John Jantsch: No, that’s awesome. So, are they going to stay true, do you think? Or would there be a temptation to say, “Let’s get into audio and video editing,” and all those kinds of things?
Guy Kawasaki: Well, certainly video because we already do that. Going to 16X9 presentations, we’re trying to make it so that mere mortals can have beautiful PowerPoint-like presentations. I don’t know. We would like it so that every graphic in the world is produced by Canva. We’re not shrinking violence at Canva.
John Jantsch: All right, well I guess you just sold me. I’m going to pony up the 10 bucks a month.
Guy Kawasaki: Okay. We can end this now.
John Jantsch: All right, so this is, what, your 14th, 15th book, Wise Guy?
Guy Kawasaki: Yeah. Wise Guy’s number 15. I truly do think it will be my last, also.
John Jantsch: Yeah? Is that because you’re out of things to say or because you’re tired?
Guy Kawasaki: Well shit, I was out of things to say on my third book, so… Well, it’s partially retired, but switching to the next topic, I am now convinced that podcasting is the new book writing. Because, well, the advantage of podcasting is, well, you can be in front of your audience a minimum of 52 times a year. You can change on a dime. So, next week if John Ives says, “I want to be in your show,” you can put them on, right? Whereas, in your book, it takes a year to write a book, it takes six to nine months to publish it, so let’s say two years, and then, it’s done. It’s laid in concrete, and you’re never going to touch it again unless you fix typos. So, you get that initial burst of, I don’t know, maybe for you, five million people buy your first version. But then, some people read it, but it’s never picked up again. Whereas, a podcast, man, you’re in their face every week. That’s so much better.
John Jantsch: Except for What the Plus! I mean, that one lives on forever.
Guy Kawasaki: Well, What the Plus! may have lasted longer than the service, but I digress.
John Jantsch: I completely agree with you on the pod… I mean, there’s so many… You mentioned an obvious benefit, but I mean, the first time you and I met was through this format and I’d like to at least call you a little bit of a friend. You’ve been a [inaudible] of my career over the years, and I think this is where the introduction happened the first time. And I’ve done that with most people.
Guy Kawasaki: But see, I’m an idiot because it took me… I’m just a late bloomer. I took up hockey at 44. I took up surfing at 61. I took a podcasting is 65. I don’t know why people listen to my advice. I clearly don’t know what the hell I’m doing.
John Jantsch: I don’t even have to ask you questions because you’re just going along my proposed questions here, but I was going to ask you that. Was their resistance or was it just literally a matter of, “I just didn’t get around to it”?
Guy Kawasaki: What, the podcasting? Okay. So, there’s the high road answer, and there’s the low road answer. Which answer do you want?
John Jantsch: I want them both, and we’ll balance them out.
Guy Kawasaki: Okay. So, the high road is, I’m at the end of my career, I’ve made a lot of connections. I’ve made a lot of friends. I can tap into that so that I can interview a Jane Goodall, a Margaret Atwood, a Steve Wozniak, Steve Wolfram, Bob Cialdini. I can get to these people because I’ve been dealing with them for years and years. So, I have this tremendous competitive advantage to interview people that many people could not get unless you’re Terry Gross maybe Malcolm Gladwell. And now, I have a much better filter system because I’m so much older that I, theoretically, have acquired some wisdom, so I can ask them the right questions. So, my time has come to do a podcast featuring remarkable people. That’s the high answer. You want to hear the low answer? Well
John Jantsch: Well, let me let you think about the low answer for a minute. So, your podcast is called Guy Kawasaki’s Remarkable People, and that’s, ultimately, what you’re doing. So, the chances of me actually being a guest are pretty minimal, I think.
Guy Kawasaki: Well, I have a test that if somebody asks to be on the podcast, they’re not remarkable enough.
John Jantsch: Yeah. Fair test. So, let’s have the low answer then.
Guy Kawasaki: So, the low answer is, when I came out with Wise Guy, I was a guest on many podcasts. Okay? So, I got to talking to somebody’s podcast where I say, “So, how often do you do this?” One guy said 52 times a year., Another guy said 156 times a year. And I said, “So, what’s your model?” “Well, it’s advertising and sponsorship.” I say, “Okay, so where does the advertising go?” He says, “Well, there’s one or two ads in the pre-roll, there’s one or two ads in the middle, and there’s one or two ads at the end.” And I said, “Well, how many people listen to these things?” “A quarter million.” “How much do you get per ad?” “Well, the ones in the front get 20 grand, the ones in the middle will get 15 grand, and the ones at the end get 10 grand.” So, I’m sitting there doing the math. So, let’s say there’s six of them and they’re doing like 15,000 bucks each on average, and I say, “So, six times 15 is 90. Ninety times 52 is fricking four and a half million bucks. That’s 10 times bigger than any advance for a book I ever got. What the hell am I writing books for?
Guy Kawasaki: Simultaneously, at 65, I just don’t want to travel anymore. I would just like surf, and so I said, “Okay, so maybe I can make my podcast successful. Basically podcasts and surf. I don’t know if I’ll make four and a half million dollars a year, but if I come…” Well, I don’t even need to come close to that to be happy. So, maybe this is my path to retirement and a better life and more surfing. So, that’s the low answer. I did it for the money.
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John Jantsch: So, we’re recording this in December of 2019, depending upon when people are listening to this, you’ve launched the show already, your first guest, or at least the first show I was able to see was Jane Goodall. A lot of people know her work for years with the apes in Africa. What’s the basis of your relationship with her and that interview?
Guy Kawasaki: Okay. So, about a little more than a year ago, the person who runs the TEDx in Palo Alto, out of the blue asked me if I want to interview Jane Goodall for her at TEDx. And that’s like, “Well, duh. Of course I want to interview Jane Goodall at TEDx.” So, it actually cost me a lot of money because I turned down a speech. I could’ve got paid speech for the same time. I said, “No, I can always get another paid speech, but how often can you interview Jane Goodall?” So, I interviewed Jane Goodall for TEDx, which is on YouTube if people want to see it, and I really became friends with her. Sometimes you just hit it off with a person. Right? And so, we’ve been communicating and stuff like that, and I communicate with her staff. And [inaudible] Fitzpatrick and I, we always help Jane Goodall when she wants to raise money or make something go out on social media.
Guy Kawasaki: And then, I decided to do this podcast, and I said, “Well, I need a spectacular, remarkable person as the first guest. Who could be,” and you weren’t available, “so, who could be better than Jane Goodall?” And so, she was going to be in San Francisco, I recorded her, and yeah, I mean, life is good. It’s good to be Guy Kawasaki sometimes.
John Jantsch: Yeah. Well, I know what you have a good relationship because I’ve seen pictures of her grooming you.
Guy Kawasaki: Yeah. She’s looking for lice in my head.
John Jantsch: Which, I think, was reminiscent of her work in the jungle, wasn’t it?
Guy Kawasaki: Yes. Yes.
John Jantsch: So, who else is up for the show? Who else do you plan to talk to in the upcoming weeks?
Guy Kawasaki: Yeah. So, Jane Goodall is out, so is Phil Zimbardo. Phil Zimbardo is the Stanford psychology professor who did the Stanford prison experiment where kids simulated being guards and prisoners. Next week is Stephen Wolfram. He is the creator of Mathematica and Wolfram Alpha, the search engine. Got a PhD at 20, MacArthur Award at 21. The next week after that is Margaret Atwood, the author of Handmaid’s Tale. And then, believe it or not, we have Wee Man, Wee Man from Jackass, the MTV series and movie. And then, I have Bob Cialdini, who I’m sure you’re heard up because you’re into sales and marketing like I am, so I have Bob Cialdini.
John Jantsch: He’s been on this show. Yeah.
Guy Kawasaki: Yeah, he’s great. So, basically, that’s the kind of people I have. I mean, they pass the remarkable test.
John Jantsch: Yeah. So, what do you have to learn to do this? This is a different format. This is different technology. This is maybe a different skill. What’s it going to take to get Guy Kawasaki to the Remarkable Podcast host?
Guy Kawasaki: Well, I’ve done a lot of panel moderation and stuff and fireside chats, where I’ve been on both sides, so it’s not like, to use a Jane Goodall analogy, it’s not like I was Tarzan and I got off a ship from Africa and now I’m in London and I have to figure everything out. So, I’ve been to this rodeo, maybe wearing a different hat, but I’ve been to this rodeo. And have you listened to the Jane Goodall one?
John Jantsch: I listened to about half of it. Yeah. In preparation for [inaudible 00:15:22].
Guy Kawasaki: Okay. So, you could see that… Well, one is, to tell you the truth, I believe that the role of the podcast or is to make the guests look great. And I also believe that, if you look at the minutes spent who’s talking, it should be about 90/10, or 90 is Jane and 10 is Guy. And so, that’s something, and a lot of people have said, “I really like your podcast, Guy, because you let Jane talk.” I think a lot of podcasts, it’s all about them, right? They’re just talking and talking and talking, and then, finally, the guest gets to say something and then the podcaster gets back on a riff. So, I don’t step on my guests. Now, honestly, I don’t know how to get subscribers or advertisers, but I figure, if I get all these guests and I produce a great podcast, I’m a big believer in, “If you build it, they will come.”
John Jantsch: Well. I think that’s a lot of it. And you’re also doing the networking. You contacted me to tell me about it, and you contacted a lot of people to tell them about it. I mean, that’s kind of Marketing 101, right?
Guy Kawasaki: Well, nothing is easy, right? Well, if you’re Michelle Obama and you started Michelle Obama Remarkable People Podcast, I’m pretty sure you’ll get 5 million subscribers in the first day, but I’m not Michelle Obama.
John Jantsch: Do you listen to podcasts?
Guy Kawasaki: Yes.
John Jantsch: Yeah. What are some of your favorites?
Guy Kawasaki: I listen to Malcolm Gladwell’s Revisionist History, who I’m trying to get as a guest. I listened to Wait Wait… Don’t Tell Me! I listen to Freakonomics. I listen to Joe Rogan. I listen to Terry Gross. I’m a big NPR fan, basically.
John Jantsch: Right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah, you can [inaudible] a lot of those shows have moved to the podcast format, but obviously, there’s still broadcast, as well. Where do you think this is going? The audio… And again, maybe you’re not in the position right now where you want to future cast trends and things because you’re just trying to figure it out to make it work for you, but it seems to me like audio content right now… I mean, podcasts had been around a while, but it seems to me like audio content is really hot and it’s going to get hotter.
Guy Kawasaki: Yes. I think that podcasting is like artificial intelligence. So, artificial intelligence for the last 30 years was going to be the next big thing, right? And finally it is. So, I think we may be there with podcasting. A lot of it is… It’s critical mass. I mean, in a sense, Apple has created a critical mass for podcasting. In the same sense, I think, one of the things I’ve noticed is QR codes, which was supposed to be a big thing, Apple finally made it a real big thing because now when you just put your camera on a QR code, you don’t have to download a QR reader, right? So, all of a sudden, yeah, QR codes makes sense. And I think Apple did the same thing with podcasts, that now that they’ve done so much and they put a podcast player on every iOS device, Apple has created another market.
John Jantsch: Yeah. And I’ve been doing this before, that was the case and that was one of the initial challenges with podcasts. It was hard to show people how to listen.
Guy Kawasaki: Yeah. Yeah.
John Jantsch: Where do you think Spotify fits into this? It seems to me like Spotify is really gaining some traction in the podcast space. Do they take on Apple, or is it just broaden the universe for everyone?
Guy Kawasaki: Hell if I know. I mean, based on two episodes, I don’t consider myself an expert. But Spotify has taken a different position. In a sense, they’re like Netflix, right? So, Netflix just doesn’t share stuff anymore. Netflix has its own series. Right? So, similarly, Amazon Prime, I watch Jack Ryan on Amazon Prime. Amazon Prime owns Jack Ryan, right? And so, Spotify is trying to create content, not just distribute content, and so they’re supposed be making this huge investment in podcasting. And I guess we’ll look back and say, “Wow, that was a genius move,” or we’ll look back and say, “Well, what a dumbass move.” And I don’t know. If Apple said we’re going to be a content creator… Well, they do that, right? They created that Morning Show for Apple TV and all that, so I guess we’ll see. I don’t know.
John Jantsch: Yeah. I think that’s the direction a lot of people are going ahead, and I wouldn’t be surprised if, just like you are playing the evangelist role for Canva, I’m wondering when companies like that start bringing in somebody like you to be their podcaster or to be their spokesperson as a podcaster.
Guy Kawasaki: Well, funny you should mentioned that because I’m Chief Evangelist of Canva, and I told Canva, I told you know the other people at Canvas, like, “So, right now you have your Canva social media, the Instagram, Facebook, all that, and you have your email lists, but there’s a limit to how many times you can send an email to someone in your registered user database. And that limit is not 52 times a year.” So, I’m making the case that, if we could get my subscriber base up to a million or so, that is a fricking tremendous weapon. So, if Guy Kawasaki’s Remarkable People has a million subscribers and Guy Kawasaki’s Chief Evangelist of Canva, so at an extreme, the pre-roll, the midway, and the end ads could all be for Canva. So, imagine, 52 times a year you can hit a million people with an ad three times. Oh my God. I mean, life is good.
John Jantsch: Absolutely.
Guy Kawasaki: So, yeah.
John Jantsch: So, I think that’s going to be a role that, I think, you start seeing is that whether they’re media companies or just companies seeing it as another channel, I think are going to start buying up people’s reach with the podcast.
Guy Kawasaki: Yeah. Because, I mean, for the very simple reason that you could hit people much more often with a podcast than you can with an email, MailChimp campaign. Accenture did a five or six podcast series with will.i.am, right? And you couldn’t hit your Accenture database six times, or probably maybe 18 times, because there are multiple ads inside the six episodes. There’s no way you could have hit your installed base with 18 email campaigns. Well, first of all, there’s not 18 interesting email campaigns you could do.
John Jantsch: Yeah. And I think that’s the key point, too, is it’s far more engaging content than an email ever will be.
Guy Kawasaki: Well, I mean, in a sense, how does NPR raise money? I mean, you don’t enjoy the pledge drive, right? So, you feel a moral obligation to reciprocate. And similarly, with Wikipedia, you don’t like to see that ugly banner where Jimmy Wales is asking you for money, but because Wikipedia provides such great information and content, you feel a moral obligation to donate. So, you could make the case that if Guy Kawasaki’s Remarkable People has all this great wisdom and advice and inspiration, and then it’s sponsored by Canva, you might feel, “Oh geez, I should help Guy out and use Canva.” That’s the theory anyway.
John Jantsch: Yeah. I think it’s a good theory. Well, Guy, we’ve exhausted our time. It was great catching up with you again, and I wish you luck in this new venture. And I will not ask to be on the show, I will just wait by my email for the invitation, if it should come.
Guy Kawasaki: Well, I hope someday to send you that email.
John Jantsch: All right, well-
Guy Kawasaki: Let’s hope that you have four files.
John Jantsch: Yeah, we’re recording with some new technology here that I think is going to just be awesome, so I-
Guy Kawasaki: If you don’t have four files, it’s my fault for convincing you to do this, and I will appear again.
John Jantsch: That’s right. All right. Well, I get to say to you, mahalo, then.
Guy Kawasaki: Take care.
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