You Can’t Self-Care Your Way Out of a Toxic Workplace

John Jantsch (00:01.187)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Amy Leneker. She is an optimistic, joy-seeking, recovering workaholic turned leadership consultant, speaker, and author. After 25 years of leadership, including more than a decade in C-suite, she left the traditional corporate life to help leaders and organizations break free from chronic stress and rediscover joy at work and life. So we're going to talk about her.

New book called Cheers to Monday, the surprisingly simple method to lead and live with stress and more joy. Live with less stress. I probably shouldn't leave that word out, should I? And more joy. So Amy, welcome to the show.

Amy Leneker (00:40.684)

Hahaha

Thanks for having me, it's so good to see you.

John Jantsch (00:47.103)

So what does a recovering workaholic look like just so we can set the baseline? And maybe more importantly, when did you realize something's gotta change?

Amy Leneker (00:58.284)

Yeah, thank you. So this is what a recovering workaholic looks like. And I didn't realize it until I burnt out. And I burnt out in a really horrible, epic way. And that's when I realized I had been working too much for too long. just that the way I was working wasn't working. And so moving forward, I had to take a really different approach to my...

John Jantsch (01:01.272)

You

Amy Leneker (01:25.566)

the way I was balancing work and life was just, it was not sustainable. So now I call myself a recovering workaholic because I think that pull to overwork is one that so many people can relate to.

John Jantsch (01:38.617)

Well, and thus the title, right? The idea that some people really hate the thought of Monday, right? And so you're kind of trying to change that. It's funny, I remember a book a few years ago, I don't know if, I don't know really how big it was. I just remember the title stuck with me. It was called Stress for Success. And I think that, I think one of the core tenets of the book was if you didn't have a little, you know, little stress in your life, you weren't going to succeed. That's a pretty common, whether it's taught or not, that's a pretty common conception, isn't

Amy Leneker (01:44.426)

Yes!

Amy Leneker (01:54.792)

Amy Leneker (02:08.494)

Yes, and it's true to a certain degree. So the problem is that there are good types of stress. It's called eustress. It's the kind of stress that makes you perform better. But that's not always the kind of stress people are experiencing at work. This just happened to me recently where a leader had said almost what the premise of that book that you just described and said, well, stress is good. It's good for me. It's good for my team, but not when it moves into distress. That's when our performance starts to go down.

So understanding the differences is really important.

John Jantsch (02:40.985)

So in Cheers to Money, you actually reveal a three-step method to transform stress. So you don't have to give away the whole book, but maybe just kind of in your own words, what are the three steps?

Amy Leneker (02:53.058)

Sure, no, and I'd love to give it away. I think I'm a horrible businesswoman, but I'm a great coach.

John Jantsch (02:57.511)

Now, I just knew it would take a little too much time to do the whole three steps,

Amy Leneker (03:02.414)

Yeah, so really quickly you've got to see it. You've got to name everything contributing to stress at work. And then secondly, we sort it into five actionable categories. Most people think all work stress is the same, but it's not. So we sort it into categories that you can actually do something with. And then in step three with solve, there is a matrix where depending on where your stressor is on that matrix, it gives you the next guiding step. So many folks just get stuck.

in overthinking or analysis paralysis. And so this is designed to take that away and to allow you to really.

John Jantsch (03:39.151)

So that first step, I think a lot of times people actually have trouble or don't even realize the amount of stress they have in their life. There was a great, I always blow it, but there was a line in the Scarlet Letter that the main character, the terrible things that were going on in her life went away. And it was then that she realized, I didn't realize the stress until it was removed. And then I felt like the unweighting.

Amy Leneker (04:07.531)

and

John Jantsch (04:09.241)

How do people actually dig in and find out what is causing stress?

Amy Leneker (04:13.718)

I think it's really about the awareness and it's about doing exactly what you just described of asking yourself those questions. The problem is that we are moving at a pace that is so fast right now, not just at work, but in the world that very few people, at least very few of the people I work with are taking the time to ask themselves that question. So it's asking it of yourself. It's creating time and space to do it on your team because the last thing we want to do is be surprised.

And I work with leaders all the time who are surprised by the sheer amount of stress that their teams have been carrying. And so to be able to figure that out before we're in a crisis situation is ideal.

John Jantsch (04:56.343)

So let's talk about teams. I know that we've been talking a little bit about leaders, but entire teams kind of feel that same stress. Could a group of people use this framework to, again, to say we could have a better team dynamic if we understood? And I know the short answer to that is yes, that they could.

Amy Leneker (05:23.363)

huh. Yeah.

John Jantsch (05:25.721)

How do you also give permission? Because I think a lot of times people just feel like, don't want to admit I have this stress or I don't want to admit I need help. So how do you use it in more of a group setting to get everybody to buy in?

Amy Leneker (05:39.254)

And it's really one of my biggest hopes for the book. The way that it's set up is that for each of the different ideas, there is an action item, whether you are a leader or an individual contributor, there's an action if you're on a team, and then there's an action if you're the entire organization. Because the challenge that I saw, not just in research, but in my own life, is that many leaders would read these books. And then leaders would go back into the team and try to do this thing, and the team had no idea what was happening, or they would push back against it.

So that's exactly right. Someone take his library card away. So that's not this book. This book is meant to be read by everyone because unfortunately stress is not an individual problem. It can't be solved by one person doing something differently. It really is a group effort. And so that's my biggest hope is that it's not just about a person getting relief. It's about entire organizations.

John Jantsch (06:08.687)

And they said, John read another book.

You

Amy Leneker (06:38.69)

feeling that relief of less stress and more joy.

John Jantsch (06:42.191)

So when you, and I think in your bio, I'm not sure if I read that point, but I you work with some very, very large companies, Fortune 100 type companies. What's the most common pushback or resistance that you get when you come in and start talking about mental health and stress and joy?

Amy Leneker (07:00.066)

Well, it's interesting. So there is, there's two. So the biggest one is around time. We don't have time. We don't have time for this. The second one is around, it feels too touchy feely. I was working with a group of engineers recently. They're not going to want to do any touchy feely stuff. Well, then you probably hired the wrong consultant first of all, but no, it actually went great. It was a great, it was a great thing. So what's interesting to me though, is that so often I get calls when things are not going well.

And that's true for most consultants. Nobody calls us just because they want to tell us the good news. just what we're not. So usually by the time I'm brought in, stress is so high that it's manifested in ways that are hurting the bottom line. It's hurting what's really important to the organization. And so those two main concern drivers are usually gone by the time that I'm.

John Jantsch (07:29.081)

Yeah. Sure.

We just want to just take it up one more notch, please.

John Jantsch (07:55.309)

So a great deal of your work is around this idea of a joy strategy to reduce stress.

Amy Leneker (08:00.578)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (08:03.289)

How does that differ from forced positivity?

Amy Leneker (08:07.242)

it is completely different. And I'm so glad that you asked because what we know, and we know this anecdotally, but I can actually back it up with data. led a national research study on the intersection of joy and stress in the modern workplace. And so we have data to back it up that toxic positivity grossly increases stress in organizations. so when, the hard thing,

John Jantsch (08:11.139)

you

Amy Leneker (08:31.926)

that I see with leaders. So many are well-intentioned, trying to do the right thing, but the toxic positivity, this forcing joy, this slap a smiley face sticker on it, it doesn't just keep things where they are, it actually makes them worse. And so the two things are night and day, as far as I'm concerned and as far as what the research would say.

John Jantsch (08:53.967)

So, you know, most stress is probably caused and relieved by culture inside an organization. Would you say that's a fairly accurate statement? So how does a workplace culture evolve, particularly if you've got employees that have been there a while, they're pretty bought into this, it's the way it is. Or maybe there's even a fair amount of...

Amy Leneker (09:05.773)

Yes.

John Jantsch (09:21.071)

let's say this gently, older generational leadership that says this is way it's gonna be, how do you change, how do you evolve away from that hustle and burn?

Amy Leneker (09:30.989)

And I think that unfortunately the answer is not simple because I think sometimes the culture can change. There is actually a type of work stress called system stress, which is what you just described when the very systems that we operate within make our work harder. There's also instances where it's not going to change. And in those cases, that's where as individuals, we have to do the cost benefit analysis of is this a place where I can be successful?

Can I be in this organ? Here's a great example, John. So recently someone was telling me that they had landed their dream job. And she was describing how it was her dream job, but her boss didn't listen to her. Her boss was shaming her in meetings. She was told she could take on this new project and then it was taken away from her. And I said, I'm a little confused because you say it's your dream job, but everything you just described sounds like a nightmare to me.

John Jantsch (10:21.303)

Yeah

Amy Leneker (10:26.414)

And so even just that awareness of we name things one thing, but in reality, if there's that much stress involved, it's probably worth considering if it's a good fit for you.

John Jantsch (10:39.343)

What do you, when you go into organizations, what have you found is the first thing that has to be repaired? I have an idea, but I'd love to hear your thought before somebody's gonna accept, okay, yeah, we can make this change.

Amy Leneker (10:48.238)

Mm-hmm.

Amy Leneker (10:53.816)

Should we count to three and both say our answers to see if we have the right one? No, just kidding. So for me, it's trust. Was that your guess? Yeah. When I work with organizations who are inviting me in, who want me to come work with them, if they're not willing to do work on trust, then I decline the engagement because I cannot do work on stress if I can't do work on trust. And organizations who don't understand that, who aren't willing to talk about that.

John Jantsch (10:55.887)

Okay, let's go.

That's what I was going to say! Ding ding ding ding ding!

Amy Leneker (11:22.42)

we're not going to be a good match in terms of working together.

John Jantsch (11:27.535)

Where would this idea fit? mean, obviously most ideas like this have to come from the top, but what role would people operations or HR play in this?

Amy Leneker (11:40.303)

huge role and HR has a huge role, individuals also have a huge role and the only way it works is when everybody's clear on what that role is. So we've done a lot of damage I believe in organizations where we're telling people to take advantage of yoga on Wednesdays or leave early and get a massage. Like if self-care is a really good thing it's not a stress strategy. You cannot self-care your way out of a toxic work environment and so to

John Jantsch (11:58.51)

you

Amy Leneker (12:07.979)

answer your question specifically about HR, there's a huge role for HR in terms of is this a workplace that's equitable? Is it fair? Are we ensuring we don't have harassment, discrimination, retaliation, all of those things that create environments that you cannot unstress your way out of? And so I see HR as a really huge partner. I think some, and I say this because I've seen it happen, I think some go too far and try to delegate.

stress to HR. You can't outsource it. You can't hire me and outsource your stress. It really is an inside job. It's the only way that it sticks. But HR is certainly a big piece of the puzzle.

John Jantsch (12:50.691)

So for somebody who's listening to this, after they go buy your book, what's one thing that you think, one practical change that a leader could say, okay, I'm gonna try this one thing and see what the impact is.

Amy Leneker (13:05.997)

Yeah. Yes, if they could only do one thing and they don't even have to buy the book, though certainly again, terrible business woman. But if you only did one thing, it's a really simple tool. Think of a stress ruler. So in your mind, picture a scale zero to 10 throughout the day, just check in how challenging is my stress.

And it's just that simple, that little moment of awareness, whether you're heading into a hard conversation or heading into a meeting with your team, just that moment of awareness where you can start to really understand where you are. You had asked earlier how I burn out. I would have no idea what my stress awareness was at that time. I had just tuned out to it. So if folks only did one thing, that's what I would encourage them to do. Tune in and really figure out what that is for you.

John Jantsch (13:53.839)

So I'm sure in a sales conversation or when somebody's inquiring about engaging your work, I'm sure the question of ROI comes up. so, A, how do you address that? Or B, do you actually have some statistics around retention and around productivity and around profitability?

Amy Leneker (14:02.893)

Yes.

Amy Leneker (14:14.455)

Yes, it comes up all the time. And I don't know any consultants who don't have to talk about what their ROI is. What usually happens the vast majority of time is I'm brought into an organization to work with a team, a specific team. Ideally, it's the leadership team, because I love it when they go first, but that's not often the case. But what happens inevitably is that three months down the road, six months down the road, folks are like, what's going on? What's happening to John's team? What's John doing over there?

And then suddenly I get a phone call from that person. So it usually is when other people in the organization see the tangible shift. This isn't about showing up at work and being happy, though of course we want people to be happy. It's about your work changes, your output changes, your absenteeism goes down, your productivity goes up. You actually start to see tangible changes.

when people are able to reengage, once that stress is lightened.

John Jantsch (15:14.169)

Talk a little bit about the generational differences. Certainly, I'm at the tail end of the baby boomers, so I hardly put myself quite in that group. But there was a kind hierarchical suck it up and your perk is you get paid for coming to work. That's on one extreme. But then you certainly read a lot about Gen Z.

Amy Leneker (15:23.471)

Mm-hmm.

Amy Leneker (15:35.156)

Yeah. Uh-huh.

John Jantsch (15:43.535)

next generation, Gen AA, I guess we're calling them, you know, that are really choosing work, not as a career, not as a job, but as, you know, as a part of their life fulfillment. So I would guess that to some degree, if you're going to try to attract that workforce, this is an important topic, it?

Amy Leneker (16:04.077)

Yes, absolutely, because what you're describing is really the culture of an organization. What are the expectations that I have? What are the behaviors that are in place? And we have different expectations. What I think is most important is to understand what we know from a systemic perspective. Like we can make generalizations about generations, but the most important thing leaders can do is to test those assumptions.

So rather than starting a new job and saying, John is of this generation, he must think this about joy, or he must think this about stress, using what we know from the data, using what we know from the research to inform those conversations, but then actually being curious, having enough trust between us that we can talk about that the way I'm doing something is actually causing you stress. So here's a great example is that you can start to see differences in expectations of joy in generations.

So there are some who have more of an expectation that I am going to feel joyful at work. And others, I think about my dad. My dad never expected to feel joy, not just a day at work. He said to me, I never thought I would feel joy a minute at work. There was no expectation that I would ever feel joy at work. So again, not just a generational issue, but I can use that to inform conversations to see if that's applying for other people too.

John Jantsch (17:12.559)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:25.941)

So you're only trying to help a billion people lead lives of stress. And I mean, that's probably scratching the surface,

Amy Leneker (17:30.093)

Right, easy, Yes. Well, I hopefully helped you today so I can take one off that list. We're gonna take off what?

John Jantsch (17:41.935)

So, all kidding aside, what does that future look

Amy Leneker (17:46.585)

What that looks like for me is that we are leading and living in a new way. This old compartmentalized way of thinking that how we are at work, we check ourselves, it's not true because how we're doing at work impacts how we're doing at home and how we're doing at home impacts how we're doing at work. So my goal is that by creating healthier, happier workplaces, you're not just making your work life better, you're making your entire life better.

There was a recent study that showed 70 % of people who have gone through a recent divorce or a breakup attribute work stress as a key factor. And for Gen X, that number went up to 79. 79 % of people say that their work was a key factor in a divorce or a breakup. So we've got to do something different, not just for work, but for our families and our communities.

John Jantsch (18:43.577)

Well, that's interesting because obviously there's an entire body of work out there about this idea of work-life balance. But are you suggesting that a lot of people get it backwards?

Amy Leneker (18:49.954)

Yes.

Amy Leneker (18:54.145)

I am. And I have a training that is called work-life harmony, not balance. Because I think, especially for women, I think we've set ourselves up to fail. There is no way to achieve work-life balance. It just ends up in shame and blame and guilt and judgment. Work-life harmony is really different. Work-life harmony is how do I take these pieces of my life and put them in a way that's going to be uniquely satisfactory to where I am in this season of my life.

John Jantsch (19:23.001)

Probably to date because your background is with larger corporations. We've talked a lot to that audience, I think. A lot of my listeners are entrepreneurs, very small businesses. How would you say that this relates to that?

Amy Leneker (19:27.108)

Mm-hmm.

Amy Leneker (19:37.123)

The skills are exactly the same. They are exactly the same. Whether you are in a boardroom at work or whether you are at happy hour with a friend or at the dinner table with your family, it's the same conversation. The same conversation of where are we now? Where do we want to be? And is there a gap? Is there a gap in our stress? Is there a gap in the joy? And if there is, and I don't, I've not yet participated in a conversation where there hasn't been. I'm sure they're out there. I'm sure, I'm sure they're there somewhere.

John Jantsch (20:03.714)

you

Amy Leneker (20:06.735)

But if there's a gap, then what are we going to do? Let's come up with an agreement. Let's come up with our plan of how we're going to be very thoughtfully and intentionally doing something different. And in New Year's a great time for these conversations. think there's just something about when the calendar shifts that we have an opportunity to reflect on the old way versus a new way.

John Jantsch (20:28.269)

that you get to say we hired a new consultant and it's her fault that we're going through this now okay so let's just let's just get through it

Amy Leneker (20:30.863)

That's true. Yes. Well, it's funny you said that because I actually tell leaders to do that all the time. Leaders will say to me, you want me to ask my team if they're stressed? I'm like, blame me. Say that you watch this podcast or you listen to this training. Blame me. Say that it's weird. Say that it's wacky. But I promise you, once you put that question out there, the data you get back is priceless.

John Jantsch (20:59.823)

So Amy, I appreciate you stopping by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Where would you invite people to connect with you, find out about your work, and obviously discover Cheers to Monday?

Amy Leneker (21:09.667)

Thank you, amyleniker.com. The book comes out March 24th, but it's available everywhere. Amyleniker.com is the best way.

John Jantsch (21:17.775)

Well again, I appreciate you stopping by. Hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Amy Leneker (21:22.595)

Thanks, John.

John Jantsch (21:27.341)

Oops.