How to Reduce Taxes and Build Real Wealth

John Jantsch (00:01.936)

What if the career setback you're still replaying is actually the best wealth strategy you'll ever stumble into because it forces you to build new skills, new discipline, and maybe a new plan that finally makes you unstoppable. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Jack Oujo. He's the founder and lead advisor of Oujo Wealth Strategies, one of the nation's largest tax

focused wealth management firms. holds multiple professional designations, including a whole bunch of letters and a master's in taxation. But before starting the firm, he was a major league baseball umpire advancing to AAA and winning the Joe Ryan Award as the highest rated minor league umpiring prospect. But today we're going to talk about both his journey and his new book, Two Smart

to be an umpire. So Jack, welcome to the show.

Jack D. Oujo (01:00.182)

Thanks, John. It's a pleasure to be with you today.

John Jantsch (01:02.332)

All right, so the first question we just need to get out of the way is, what do you think of the rule change on balls and strikes this year that's going to go to the majors?

Jack D. Oujo (01:13.038)

I am actually in favor of it. And the reason why I'm in favor of it is because you've had, you have three boxes on the TV, one from the home team, one from the visiting team, and they're normally set by some intern that works there. It's not the actual strike zone, by the way. You have the one from Major League Baseball and the human being. So let's get one right.

John Jantsch (01:15.003)

Yeah?

John Jantsch (01:28.104)

is that right?

John Jantsch (01:32.368)

Yeah, yeah. Do you feel umpires feel that way too? Because again, I know they're going to they're going to test it with here we're to do the whole show on this. I know they're going to test it with you know, only get a couple challenges. But you know, every batter thinks it's a ball and every pitcher thinks it's a strike. So

Jack D. Oujo (01:42.382)

Sure.

Jack D. Oujo (01:49.87)

I was going over with one major league umpire, his retirement plan. was in his late fifties. And I told him he was financially independent, was working because he wanted to. said, how much longer do you want to go? And he goes, Oh, a few more years, Jack, till I'm 59. He goes, they bring in the electronic strike zone. goes, I'll go till I'm 79. Won't be under any pressure, nothing along those lines. So I think they like it. creates more jobs.

It makes the job less valuable in my view. Why do you need to pay somebody $400,000 a year when you have a phone that can get the pictures right? So it's like anything else in our society, AI, you'd be taking away another job.

John Jantsch (02:24.794)

Yeah. Yeah. All right. So let's talk a little bit about your journey. had, I mean, you, while it sounds like you loved umpiring, it was a bit of a career disappointment. So how did you turn that into where you are today?

Jack D. Oujo (02:41.346)

Well, yeah, during the eight years I was in the minor leagues, I was smart enough, no pun intended, to work in the off seasons as an accountant. I had good accounting jobs in New York City, and so I was gaining experience.

And when I got my release, I was surprised because I was on the verge of the major leagues and there was, I write about it too smart to be an umpire. But nevertheless, I decided to focus on getting as much education as I could. I didn't know where it would lead, but I was so hurt from the baseball experience that I'd work nine to five.

And then at night, I spent the next four years getting my CPA, CFP, master's in taxation, securities and insurance license, not knowing where it would lead. And so that was the focus, getting education and try to reinvent myself from the ground up.

John Jantsch (03:21.03)

Mm.

John Jantsch (03:31.526)

So, I mean, did you look at it then as that's plan B? I don't know what plan B looks like, but that's plan B.

Jack D. Oujo (03:39.768)

Plan B was always a career in public accounting, but as I was in public accounting, I realized how boring that was. You your professional baseball umpired 30,000 people in the stands and I found myself counting hats one day verifying an inventory. so that's how I transferred into wealth management.

John Jantsch (03:58.11)

it is a, is a minor league umpire in particular not paid enough for that to be their full-time job. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you're getting on the buses with them, huh? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, so you, so most of them were doing like you were, another gig, which was, some mechanic work, right? Tax prep.

Jack D. Oujo (04:04.032)

It's poverty. It's an absolute disgrace. And that goes for the players too. Managers. We drive our own cars. We drive our own transportation. It's even worse than people think. Yeah, it's bad.

Jack D. Oujo (04:23.798)

In my case, was accounting work. A lot of people in baseball work for UPS, it seemed, in the off seasons. But unless you had the resources from family, which most people did not, you had to find something to do once the season ended.

John Jantsch (04:35.958)

I, when I was in high school, a friend of mine worked at, worked for the Royals as a clubhouse attendant. and, so every now and then I got to fill in and do that. And one of my favorite things to do was bring the, the after game meal to the umpires because it always slipped me five bucks or something. so even in poverty, they were taking care of the little guy. So.

Jack D. Oujo (04:57.482)

Absolutely, The manager of the Padres now, I don't know why his name escapes me, but he was actually our clubby in Charlotte in double A and actually rose to become a major league manager, current manager of the Padres.

John Jantsch (05:11.378)

wow. That's awesome. Yeah, that's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah. So now fast forward a bit. You've built one of the nation's largest tax focused wealth firms. Talk a little bit about, I mean, was there a secret sauce? Was there an approach to client relationships? Did your past kind of really guide you? What was your, what do you attribute to your success, I guess?

Jack D. Oujo (05:35.082)

I think people like the honesty and I think that's from the umpire in me. I don't know if they think I'm the brightest bulb, but they know they can trust me. And after going through the baseball experience, I did believe in protecting against worst case scenarios. When the terrorist attack took place in 2001, if you remember back then, the thinking was, will there be another attack? It's a question of when.

John Jantsch (05:39.43)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (06:00.016)

Mm-hmm.

Jack D. Oujo (06:00.202)

And I prepared my clients for worst case scenarios. When 2008 hit, they were prepared, although I didn't know what a reverse credit default swap was at the time. And the business really prospered, like went to a whole nother level after 2008, growing by 400%. But I think just emphasizing client service, a four seasons type of service with clients was probably.

John Jantsch (06:24.828)

So I'm sure that you are very aware of this. Certainly a lot of business owners that we work with, tax planning means giving their stuff at the end of the year to their accountant, as opposed to anything that would be proactive. What's the biggest misconception you hear from clients, especially businesses, when it comes to taxes and wealth planning?

Jack D. Oujo (06:47.256)

Sure, when I meet with a client for the first time, I always ask them what their biggest expense is and they say their mortgage and I go, no, isn't. And they argue with me until I explain to them it's their income tax. Everybody knows their refund or what they owe, but they don't know they have much greater control over that expense than they think. I think people also think that wealthy people don't pay taxes when they do. And arranging your affairs,

to reduce your taxes in a way that's consistent with your goals and objectives is critical for clients. again, maximizing retirement accounts, having a side hustle, I think helps employees. But arranging your affairs to pay the least possible tax in a way consistent with your goals is important.

John Jantsch (07:32.432)

So do you want to get into the nitty gritty on that a little bit? mean, are there specific things, again, a lot of our listeners are entrepreneurs, small business owners. Are there things that you just consistently see they're not doing or that they clearly could or need to stop doing or they could do better?

Jack D. Oujo (07:51.906)

Well, one huge idea, if you're dealing with a sole proprietor with no employees or few employees that makes a lot of money, they ought to consider a defined benefit pension plan. We've had clients that have million dollar incomes that we're able to get five or $600,000 write-offs by having defined benefit plans. So figuring out the best pension plan for yourself is critical for a business owner. The second thing would be entity structure.

John Jantsch (08:02.118)

Mm-hmm.

Jack D. Oujo (08:17.068)

Should you be an S-corp, LLC, what have you? Should you have your children on the payroll and things along those lines? What type of accounting method you should have, cash or accrual, to get into the nuts and bolts of those things. But again, realizing you want to make as much money as possible.

John Jantsch (08:17.146)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (08:22.459)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (08:30.972)

Well, I yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean, are there, again, I know that people are in different situations, but when somebody came to you with a blank slate and said, what should my entity be? know, should I have a 401k? I mean, what is kind of your standard advice?

Jack D. Oujo (08:48.014)

Yeah, I think if your income is over $100,000, $150,000 a year, you should be an S corporation because you can play around with what reasonable compensation is and be able to avoid social security taxes. If you're making under $20,000 a year, just being a sole proprietor is fine. But you can avoid a lot of taxes just with a single 401k plan, things along those lines. So it depends.

John Jantsch (09:06.533)

Mm-hmm.

Jack D. Oujo (09:15.374)

over when you get over $200,000, then we could have some fun with other types of pension plans. And if you're in a service business, you should probably never be an accrual based taxpayer because your payables are going to be greater than what your receivables are. So again, it's not one size fits all.

John Jantsch (09:37.616)

Yeah, sure, sure, sure. So are there what people might call creative or lesser known deductions or credits that you see people are really not even aware of or certainly are underutilized?

Jack D. Oujo (09:52.97)

I'm just harping on these pension plans again. I hate to say it, but they're missed by everybody. They're missed. And the timing of income at the end of the year, being able to postpone receipts, things along those lines. There isn't a magic thing. A lot of loopholes have been closed. What used to be pretty cool in the 70s and 80s, they're gone now. again, those are the things you have to look at. Start with pension plans and then we can talk after that.

John Jantsch (09:55.014)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:21.958)

So I work with lot of entrepreneurs that end up having really great year, really bad year, really banner year. It seems to be kind of up and down. And so a lot of them come to the end of the year and it was like, crap, we've had a banner year this year, which is great, but I'm an S corp and now I'm going to get a giant tax bill. What are some things that people can do when they have more revenue than expected?

Jack D. Oujo (10:46.84)

Well, you're looking to buy equipment and take a big section 179 deduction. So if you have a big income, example, you could buy a vehicle. it's over 6,000 pounds, you can write, off a very large vehicle. I would look at things that you want to buy for your business and that you can write off in one year would probably be the biggest thing. On the other hand, have you ever really lousy year where you actually lost money for the year on a personal basis? And we've done this for many clients is looking to do Roth conversions.

John Jantsch (10:51.036)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:16.144)

Mm-hmm.

Jack D. Oujo (11:16.238)

where you're taking your IRA, you're paying taxes on it, it never gets taxed again, and you're kind of creating income where there isn't any that exists and utilizing that negative opportunity for something positive for the old age version of yourself.

John Jantsch (11:30.714)

Yeah, another hot topic that I run across a lot is, especially for owners, obviously, is salary versus distributions. You know, you have a lot of people giving the advice of, pay yourself just enough that the IRS thinks that's OK, and then distribute, because you're going to save on some taxes. Is it that cut and dried?

Jack D. Oujo (11:50.188)

No, not at all. The tax system is always going to be complicated because we derive our income in different ways. I've represented clients in many audits over the year. You're trying to sell a reasonable person on what is reasonable in this situation. So you have to pay yourself a quote unquote reasonable salary.

John Jantsch (12:05.725)

Alright.

Jack D. Oujo (12:11.214)

So if you made $100,000 for the year and paid yourself $10,000, most people would say that's BS, that's not correct. But if you paid yourself 40 or 50,000, $50,000 in distributions, now you could kind of make a case that that's reasonable. So again, it depends on the situation. There's people, you you don't want to be a pig with this stuff. I found the IRS auditors.

John Jantsch (12:33.607)

Mm-hmm.

Jack D. Oujo (12:37.174)

to be very reasonable people, believe it or not. You can always get one that's an exception, but most of the time they're trying to be reasonable. And most times you can settle these things in minutes, quite frankly. If you're a pig, you're gonna get slaughtered, know, that's the way I see

John Jantsch (12:49.959)

Yeah.

So talk a little, I know this might be a little dry, make it, try to make it sexy if you can for me, but depreciation, equipment purchases, like you're talking about vehicles. So let's say, this probably is gonna verge on the pig, but let's say somebody buys a recreational type of vehicle, $100,000 conversion van type of thing, and they also own a business. Where's the line on...

Are they using that for business? Are they not using that for business? Where does that get a little fuzzy?

Jack D. Oujo (13:30.11)

If you're using your car and your business, again, we have to sell this reasonable person that we're using this for business and painting a sign on the side of it is not, you you're going to fly with not the IRS is playing a game of where does this number come from? How many miles did you drive? And there's, there's apps that I use one called mileage IQ, and you don't have to think about it. So they're looking for how many miles did you drive and improve it?

John Jantsch (13:39.975)

you

John Jantsch (13:50.695)

Mm.

John Jantsch (13:55.965)

Yeah.

Jack D. Oujo (13:56.142)

And if you have this documentation, you're starting to sell the auditor that these things are real. So again, if the vehicle's over 6,000 pounds, you write the whole thing off in one year. And then I would strongly advise people to use some kind of documentation tool. Mileage IQ is excellent. If you're lazy and don't do that, then having your oil changed at the of the year where you could document odometer readings.

John Jantsch (14:20.925)

All

Jack D. Oujo (14:25.026)

That would be a good thing to do, but you're playing a game of documentation, I found, with the office. As long as you can document things and, again, sell a reasonable person on things, you're going to be okay. That's the line.

John Jantsch (14:29.241)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:38.917)

Have you seen a lot of organizations have distributed workforce these days? So people working out of their homes in 15 states. What does that do for the business entity tax picture? And then also, what does it do for the individual? So if an individual is employed, they have to keep an office to say, I mean, is that a deduction for that individual?

Jack D. Oujo (15:00.248)

Sure, the way I would do that if they want to be smart about it, if they can get with their employer, they can change their compensation structure around so that part of this is salary and part of it is a direct employee business expense. So if your office is in New York City and you work in Idaho, let's say.

you make $100,000 a year, you could restructure your salary. So $15,000 of it is reimbursement for office expenses, non-taxable to the person and item, deductible for the employer. then again, I use an app called Domicile 365 because I spend most of my time in Florida and some of it in New Jersey. So if I was examined by New Jersey, this app tracks me every 15 minutes.

John Jantsch (15:30.007)

I see,

Jack D. Oujo (15:47.574)

and I attached a summary to my New Jersey return. I report New Jersey income, but only for the days that I worked in New Jersey. So again, this documentation game comes in the play, but structure, I advise the umpires and Major League Baseball to do this, to try to restructure their salary so part of its expense reimburses.

John Jantsch (16:03.847)

Yeah. Would health insurance fall into that category? Let's say somebody gets their spouse is they're able to get on their spouse's plan, but it's $300, you know, to add, could the employer pay that and actually deduct that? And that would be pre-tax or not.

Jack D. Oujo (16:18.221)

The could use some sort of section 125 plan or if there's a high deductible plan, something along those lines could be a win for the employee and the employer. In my business, I've had high deductible medical plans and I contributed money to our employees HSA accounts that they could take with them. It was not a use it or lose it feature. And that was good for both me and for them.

John Jantsch (16:27.421)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (16:44.411)

Yeah. Where do you fall on 401k? they, I, again, I know it's people probably trying to sell another tool, but I see a lot of, I'd see a lot of people kind of bashing 401k's as not a great business tool or not a great employee tool.

Jack D. Oujo (17:01.396)

Anybody that bashes 401Ks you should run away from, like the place with non-fire. For people, it's one good thing that Jimmy Carter did as president was put in the 401K plans. Sorry to say that, but...

Everybody should make almost everybody should make maximum use of 401k plans where they're missed by people is a lot of times I've seen us two spouses working where one person makes big money and another one has some sort of part-time job and they have this mental accounting on money They should both be utilizing maxing out 401k plans because I found that a lot of people in America when they go to retire end up with a paid-off mortgage Which I'm a huge fan of by the way I'm a big believer in paying off your mortgage when reasonable to do so I have

John Jantsch (17:28.775)

Mm-hmm.

Jack D. Oujo (17:45.168)

haven't had a mortgage on my house in 25 years. But they come in with these 401k plans that are seven figures and then they live off of them. They up and downsize their home and they have more money to play with. But that's the, for most Americans that make under $400,000 a year, $500,000 a year, you're crazy not to max out your 401k plans. And my three adult children, I preach that to them and I'm glad they listen to me on it. go, max it out, max it out, max it out.

John Jantsch (17:53.445)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jack D. Oujo (18:15.088)

reducing, in my opinion, your largest expense, which is your income tax. You're cutting that down and building up this lump sum of capital you need to retire. And this business that you have large taxes and retirement is also a bunch of malarkey. You know, the tax rate under $90,000 is 12%. You have $3 million in your IRA take out 4 % a year, 120 grand. You got 90,000 at 12 % and the $30,000 standard deduction. How is that wrong? that's

John Jantsch (18:19.314)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:32.39)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (18:42.172)

Yeah.

Jack D. Oujo (18:43.692)

That's how I feel, very strong mistake.

John Jantsch (18:44.869)

Yeah, well, so talk to talk one more time about employer putting children or spouses on the payroll, because I think that's a that's something that a lot of people overlook as well.

Jack D. Oujo (18:54.798)

Sure. First of all, children can only be on the payroll if you're a sole proprietor or a single member, LLC, if you want to avoid payroll taxes on them. And they have to do work and it should be documented. But if you pay your child that works in the business $10,000, let's say, you avoid all the social security taxes.

John Jantsch (19:07.549)

Okay, yeah, right. Yeah.

Jack D. Oujo (19:19.086)

They get taxed at that rate, which is hardly anything. And then you put that in your 529 plan. So the regular business owner that goes, I make too much money for any child aid. That's your own loophole to get, you you probably save three to $4,000 just having your kid on a payroll for $10,000.

John Jantsch (19:23.975)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:36.605)

And you're giving them money that you would have probably given them anyway, right?

Jack D. Oujo (19:41.431)

My kids were on the payroll for a long time. I remember my son, is my youngest, who's now 30 years of age when he was four years old. My wife got a letter from Social Security saying, here, Mr. Financial Advisor.

Social Security wants to know what my son Matthew did for work. And I said, my son worked on the shredding machine in the office. He stuffed envelopes and he told everybody at his preschool what his father did for a living, which significantly resulted in new business and sent them in and never heard from them again. know, but he did work in the business, you know, the question of what is it worth? know, the tax law for a millionaire is the same for a poor person. And you make that argument.

John Jantsch (20:10.267)

Ha ha.

John Jantsch (20:16.071)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jack D. Oujo (20:23.726)

My son modeled for the firm brochure. How is his modeling different than somebody else? Unless you're the laws for them and not for me. So that are the arguments you could make there. But again, you have to, you can't put them on the payroll for $100,000 for you.

John Jantsch (20:23.869)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (20:37.775)

Yeah, well, I will say, you know, for a lot of entrepreneurs, you know, spouse, particularly a spouse that is doesn't have another career outside the home. mean, they're there. I guarantee it. They're working.

Jack D. Oujo (20:51.864)

My spouse, my wife Eileen has been on the payroll for 30 years, always maxing out the 401k plan and she could tell anybody what she did because she did work in the office and work very hard. But it's two pension plans, one for me, one for her and now they're telephone.

John Jantsch (21:00.369)

Yep. Yep.

Well, and, she contributed to social security, I suspect. Right. So she's going to get a social security check that she wasn't going to get otherwise. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Well, for those of you that, like it, when we talk about AI and marketing and creative things, I'm sorry, we had to get down into the weeds on, on another really important, as you said, the biggest expense for a lot of businesses or certainly a lot of business owners. Jack, before we let you go,

Jack D. Oujo (21:07.63)

Yes, also.

Jack D. Oujo (21:12.302)

100 % absolutely correct.

John Jantsch (21:33.495)

Is there some place you'd invite people to find out more about your work, find out about too smart to be an umpire?

Jack D. Oujo (21:40.076)

Yeah, there's a website, TooSmartToBeAnUmpire.com. They can go on Amazon and read all the reviews that are on Amazon right now. I'm thrilled. I'm a first time author. So when TooSmartToBeAnUmpire came out, I wasn't sure I was going to go over. And it's borderline bestseller list right now. So there's a website, TooSmartToBeAnUmpire.com and also Ojo Wealth Strategies, which I'm the founder of. People can check out that website. Jason Gordon and Anthony Sandimerski are running the firm now.

Jason's 35 and he's worked in my office since he was 16 years old. So they're well credentialed and great guys, so that's where they can find out.

John Jantsch (22:16.605)

Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by and hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Jack D. Oujo (22:22.242)

Thanks, John.