Marketing Chaos Ends With a Real System

John Jantsch (00:01.697)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is Jon Jantsch and my guest today is Sara Nay. Many of you know who she is. She is the CEO of Duct Tape Marketing and author of Unchained, Breaking Free from Broken Marketing Models. And we are going to talk about a topic that's near and dear to me, to us. Welcome, Sarah.

Sara Nay (00:27.756)

Thank you. Excited to dive in.

John Jantsch (00:30.027)

So over the years, we've worked with thousands. I think you're probably getting up close to that number, Sarah, of small business owners and marketing consultants. you know, in doing this for 30 years, same thing keeps coming up. Marketing feels like a moving target, like just jumping at the next new thing that comes. So we built a system. And that's something that we've been doing for many, many years, but this is more than a framework or a playbook.

Sara Nay (00:36.546)

think so.

John Jantsch (00:55.213)

Um, it's a full operating system and that's what we're going to talk about today. And that's why I have Sarah here because she's been very instrumental in building and installing the system. So, uh, let's break it down. Um, I guess I could say this statement no matter when there's a lot of chaos and marketing right now for me as it's others, isn't there? Um, again, that, that doesn't seem to change. Does it.

Sara Nay (01:17.184)

No, it doesn't seem to change, it does feel more chaotic these days than normal.

John Jantsch (01:20.554)

Yeah. Well, and I think a lot of that is because, you know, we've said strategy before tactics and there's just more tactics now, think, which I think is really causing a lot of that.

Sara Nay (01:28.099)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (01:33.982)

Let's talk about a system itself. Why would we install a marketing system? So we've identified this idea that there's chaos. So what does, I mean, a system help us solve?

Sara Nay (01:46.828)

Yeah. So people are comfortable with systems and business. So people build business operating systems. People build financial systems, but marketing is just bit. Yeah. Okay. Go on and on. But for some reason, marketing has always just been like, let's see what works. and, and, and as we've said over the years, strategy before tactics, systematic approach to marketing. That's something we've always been preaching because we've seen that need. And so the marketing operating system is just.

John Jantsch (01:55.374)

hiring systems, right, everything.

John Jantsch (02:02.644)

the

Sara Nay (02:14.956)

doing exactly that, it's leading with strategy and it's actually putting systems and processes and scorecards and meeting rhythms into your marketing department and not just in other departments of your business.

John Jantsch (02:27.521)

Yeah. So, so we're going to break down. There are seven components. I like seven. I've used it throughout my career. I think it's proven as a consulting framework. mean, look at all the books, out there that start with the seven habits or the seven, systems or milestones or things. but before we really get into all each of those seven, what, how does this differ from what

A lot, you know, somebody hires a marketing agency today, typical marketing agency. How does this differ in what they are going to experience from what has probably been their experience to date?

Sara Nay (03:05.376)

Yeah, there, mean, there's a lot of differences in my mind for one, when you bring in a marketing agency, oftentimes they'll say we run Facebook campaigns, meta campaigns. That's what we specialize. That's what you need. We'll get you results. And so they dive into channel specific tactics without actually taking a step back and creating the marketing strategy and doing the research to even determine.

if a meta campaign makes sense and then how to do it effectively. So unfortunately, a lot of people skip over the strategy phase and that's where this is different. But then also when after you've created the strategy, a lot of people struggle with, okay, this strategy shouldn't just sit in a Google Drive folder somewhere. It should actually be something that directs what we're doing moving forward.

And so once you put the work into creating the strategy, the next phase is then how do we take the strategy and how do we actually turn it into action and how do we measure it and how do we continue to improve it over time? And so that's another area where this is different. It's not just strategy, it's strategy plus actual movement towards goals moving forward.

John Jantsch (04:10.605)

Yeah, and I think one of the really key things that I think you implied, but I want to say it directly, is that a lot of marketers just come in and say, look, we're going to make the phone ring or we're going do this. And we really take some time to study what's the business objectives that we're going to tie this strategy to, because that's first and foremost, what we ought to be doing as opposed to just saying, you know, we think this will work. We'll work for what or work for how? So the first component.

and, and no surprise, this is something we've been doing for many years. call it strategy first core. in a lot of ways it's the, it's the brain, it's the clarity. It's like, here's how we're different. Here's why you should buy from us. Here's how we're going to dominate the market. I mean, it's, it's kind of stepping back and looking at that. And what, what I've experienced over the years, and I'm curious, because you've been doing this a long time now too, is that it exists inside the business. Like what you do is unique.

what your customers really value is unique, but we're just not capturing it or we just don't realize it without stepping back and doing this. What are the steps that we take in strategy first core that a business owner is going to get to really kind of get at that clarity?

Sara Nay (05:23.246)

Yeah. And it's, so important that too many people do skip over. I'm working with the jewelry store right now and they've worked with a number of agencies over the years and they basically come in and just said, okay, here's the same social and the content that we've done with all the other jewelry stores. And so it should work for you as well. And so now all of a sudden they're competing with everyone else versus being different and unique and standing out. And as you said, that's what strategy accomplishes. so strategy core, it always starts with where are you today from a marketing perspective and marketing and brand audit to analyze that.

John Jantsch (05:37.899)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (05:53.1)

And then it goes into competitive research, interviewing your ideal clients. And all of that is to then develop ideal client profiles and core messaging, because that's always been step one and two in marketing. You need to know who you're targeting with what message to then determine anything else from there. And so once you nail those two pieces and strategy, then you start looking at, okay, what is our marketing hourglass or our customer journey look like? How can we get people to know, like, trust?

try by repeat and refer our business, which I always says gives purpose to your marketing and then identifying content strategy, your biggest priorities for the next quarter and then putting that all into an execution calendar from there.

John Jantsch (06:37.355)

Yeah. And, and I think overall the strategy first that we've done because we've done them for years, you you always come away with some obvious things like this is what the next 90 days needs to look like. These are the foundational things we need to fix. Here's how we're going to start to think about growth. But, but what we're trying, what we want to do now is then say, okay,

Step two is let's take those priorities and let's think about, I've talked about a lot before the strategy pyramid, that marketing strategy actually has three very core components and we have to address all three of them. There is the brand strategy, there is the growth strategy, which of course is what most people focus on. And then there's the customer experience strategy. So after we get a customer intentionally, what do we want to do? What do we want them to experience? So after doing strategy first,

How do we then make sure that we're kind of mapping, you know, we call them engines and campaigns so that we were at least saying on paper, here's the blueprint for these engines.

Sara Nay (07:37.922)

Yeah. And that's the piece that a lot of people miss when it goes from how you transition from the strategy to actually doing the work or getting the work done. And so that's phase two in the marketing operating system. It's once you have the strategy created, you move into the campaign builder phase, as you said, but organizing them in different areas. So you always need to be focusing on brand. You need to be focusing on growth. How are you going to grow the business? But then the one that a lot of people often forget about is customers, but I would argue that's one of the most important. It's how are you going to continue to retain

customers, upsell, cross-sell, get referrals out of them, reviews out of them over time. And so that's the piece, the campaign pillar, which is phase two in the marketing operating system, which in my mind really gets you from strategy to what exactly are we going to do in those areas of our business for sustainable growth moving forward.

John Jantsch (08:25.815)

Yeah. And I would argue just because I've seen over the years, lot of, there are a lot of companies out there that kind of figured out here's our brand and here's how we get, you know, customers. But that third piece is where they really would build the momentum and the profit, you know, and, that's the part that I, you know, my experience has been over the years that, you could drop in and fix that part for a company and you'd probably do, do them as much benefit as anything. Of course, now we know what we're going to do, right? Those engines kind of map out what we want to do or what we want our plan to do, but

But I think here's another part that breaks down is people are like, yay. But then it's, there's like, well, who's going to do it? You know, how are they going to do it? You know, what is the process to make sure that it's done right? So the third part, the workstream engine, how does, how does kind of mapping out roles and processes and SOPs then fit into this?

Sara Nay (09:15.086)

Yeah, and this is the side that people get really excited about because they're an ops person, which is my background. I love systems and processes or they're like, oh gosh, that seems like a lot of work, but it's very important to work because as you just highlighted, we know what we're going to be doing because we've put in the work for strategy and campaigns and engine building. Now it's how are we going to get this work done? How are we going to do it consistently moving forward? How are we going to make as little mistakes as possible? And so that's really what this work stream engine does.

It maps out your systems and processes that you're going to be doing on a repeatable basis. And it helps you document those things. So there is, again, more consistency in the work that your team is producing and less errors in the customer experience moving forward. But it also helps you understand what humans do we have.

on the team, where are their strengths, where are their weaknesses, where can we get them in their zone of genius to be the most productive moving forward as well. So it accomplishes all of that and is a really important step for consistency for your brand and the experience.

John Jantsch (10:22.829)

Well, here we've called this a marketing operating system. It's really starting to look like a system. know, any of the, any of you listeners out there to thinking about selling your business one day, um, it's clear to me that, you know, everybody I've ever talked to about this exit planning, it's clear that if you can bring somebody in and say, here's how we generate customers, here's how we keep customers here in the SOPs so that you can do it. I mean, all of a sudden.

Sara Nay (10:47.192)

Yep.

John Jantsch (10:48.001)

you're really building equity for the owner or whoever it is, the stakeholders in that business. And I think that, you know, this is a long-term process to build a system like this, but I think the long-term gain is what really we need to focus on. This isn't really just a marketing activity. It's really a business equity activity, isn't

Sara Nay (11:08.066)

Yeah, absolutely. It increases the value in your business. I absolutely, but it also solves a lot of short term pains as well. So that's the long term gain that you're working towards, but in the short term, it helps you understand what you should be doing and why and what's working and not working and who's responsible. So there's all of those like guessing game type of questions in the short term that it solves as well as the long term gain.

John Jantsch (11:32.525)

All right, so you mentioned humans. Now we have to move to AI. There's no question that the emergence of AI offers some incredible opportunities, some incredible efficiencies, some incredible ways to do things that we haven't been able to do certainly much faster. But we've purposely made this the fourth step, frankly, because it really needs to be informed.

by strategy. If you just jump into a bunch of these AI tools without going through these first few steps, you're just really creating another set of tactics in another place, perhaps. And I've seen companies, in fact, where they actually are creating more frustration for their people, really than efficiencies. Some people feel like they're working harder now that they're using some of these tools. So because of what we've done prior to this in step four, how does the AI marketing hub

Sara Nay (12:13.008)

yeah.

John Jantsch (12:26.349)

which is our step four, kind of fit into the strategic work, but then also moving forward the systems work.

Sara Nay (12:34.592)

Yeah. And I just want to double tap. It is really important to go about it in that order. I see a lot of people bringing in AI and then they're like, okay, now what can we do? It's like, you need to know what you're going to be doing. And then you need to know who is on your team. That's why the workstream engine is before this, because then you can answer the question of not how can we do more? How can we do faster? It's how can we up level the people that we already have in our team? And that's how I think about AI. It's what are your strengths and weaknesses as a human? What should

you delegate to AI so you can focus more on the highest, most important things for your clients. And so that's why it's after all of the work so far, really thinking about bringing in AI solutions to up-level team that you have in place versus replace or just moving faster. And so that's why it fits in at this stage. But also another note of why it fits on in the stage is where people struggle with AI is they bring in something like Chagy BT or Claude or tool of your choice.

but they don't have the marketing strategy or business strategy mapped out. And so they use these tools to create noise and confusion versus taking the time to say, here's our ideal clients, here's our messaging, here's our leadership stories, here's interviews from our ideal clients, here's sales call recordings, speaking to prospects. And so when you take the time to do all of that work,

It helps you identify what the right tools are to bring in, but also to train those tools effectively so you can actually make an impact with them versus just more noise.

John Jantsch (14:07.009)

Yeah, and I would add on there, you know, the work we've done in the workstream engine. You know, a lot of times people are like, we want to automate some of these things. Well, if you don't have a good process in place, it doesn't matter if you use AI to replace a crappy process. So there's no question this is where it fits. But again, it's the temptation for a lot of people is to do it backwards. You know, start with AI. So now we've really, in a lot of ways, we've built a system. The next three steps are...

Sara Nay (14:18.882)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:33.953)

really a matter of tuning the system because that's really where I think it drives a lot of power is, you know, some of what you're building in the beginning, you're saying we think this or this is our best guess or based on experience, here's where we are, but now we're going to work on constantly improving it. So the next step is really, we need to build the dashboard, the eyes of the system, right? Turn the data into decision-making. So what is that step five, the scorecard and signals dashboard?

Sara Nay (14:51.523)

Yep.

Sara Nay (15:02.55)

Yeah, so that's, I would say one of the number one struggles in the small business space since I've been doing this is understanding metrics and data and is marketing working or not and how to track all of it. And so as part of strategy and the work we've done so far, you should be identifying again what you're gonna be doing.

John Jantsch (15:09.997)

You

Sara Nay (15:23.234)

but you also should be identifying what's gonna determine if these things are successful or not, and then how are you gonna track those things moving forward. And so the example I always like to give is, let's say you're gonna send a direct mail campaign because you're a local business and you're capturing another store closing. That's the scenario of one of my clients right now. And so they're sending a direct mail campaign, but in order to determine if that's successful or not, they're putting...

tracking number on there, they're putting QR codes, they have a set path on their website where they can track conversions based on that specific piece of direct mail. And so we're setting goals of, okay, we're gonna send X amount of pieces, we wanna get X amount of appointments in the door to determine if this was successful or not. And so the scorecard and signals section is really just analyzing what you've laid out from a priorities standpoint, but also reoccurring marketing components. And then what are you gonna attract?

to determine if you should continue doing those things or not moving forward, and then putting it all into a dashboard so it's really easy for your team as a whole to understand what is in the red, what's in the yellow, what's in the green, what do we need to focus on moving forward to continue to optimize, or to say this tactic isn't working for us, maybe we need to shift and focus on something else.

John Jantsch (16:43.053)

Yeah, really a key there is this system is going to involve getting the whole team involved. They're going to at least be, you know, obviously there are people that have marketing roles that are going to be very involved. But the real key behind this is it, it's a bit of a culture shift inside of an organization. So one of the things that we believe needs to be in place then is you can't just install this thing. There need to be processes in place that really keep you from drifting. And so.

Sara Nay (16:48.28)

Yep.

Sara Nay (17:09.72)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (17:10.925)

The next step is we're going to build this thing. We're going to teach you how to use this tool called the Momentum Meeting that is going to be a monthly at least meeting where you are really checking in with the team and you're really communicating what's going on and building kind of accountability into the culture because it's not just a matter of building SOPs and saying this is the new way we're going to do things. I there has to be a mindset shift inside the...

the entire organization and that takes consistency, that takes repetition, that really communicates, hey, we mean this, this is the new way we're gonna operate. So what's that momentum meeting look like? Is there a certain format to it that you think is gonna make it effective?

Sara Nay (17:58.294)

Yeah. So if you're listening to this right now and you're thinking, think through your marketing meetings that you're having with your team or your agency or anyone that's handling your marketing. Does it feel like they're showing up and just going over a list of tactics and maybe you're reporting on some vanity metrics like website traffic that didn't actually turn into anything from a revenue standpoint?

That's not a momentum meeting. A momentum meeting is a lot more structured and focused on, again, everything that we would have worked through in the marketing operating system so far, but those scorecards and the signal dashboards are really what are the focus of the meeting. And so yes, you can still cover, like this is what I accomplished, this is what I have coming up, but you don't want these meetings just to feel like a list of tactics or work. It's, okay, how did that make an impact? How did that move the needle? Why didn't we hit our goal?

What do we need to do next quarter to or next month to be able to hit our goal moving forward and asking those questions to the people that are running your marketing. So it doesn't all just follow, fall on you as a leader. you don't want people showing up to those meetings and just like, Sarah, we didn't hit any of our goals. What should we do next? How should we improve? Because you're not giving them ownership. You're not holding them accountable. So the momentum meeting is based on numbers and information. And it's also based on goals that you would have set and agreed upon and how can you

to get closer to those goals moving forward.

John Jantsch (19:17.643)

Yes, keyword their accountability is what that can bring. So one of things that we've certainly seen over the years is when we work with the client, over 90 day period, we can make some progress. Some maturity happens inside the organizations. We fix certain things and now we can move on to the next thing. And I think that that's an important piece on a quarterly basis, at least, to think in terms of how can we, okay, we've installed the system, let's optimize it. Let's continue to improve it.

Let's help the system self-improve maybe even this. I mean, this is not a one and done thing. This is just like any system in your business. You're going to find as things change, you're going to find leaks. You're going to find gaps. You're going to find things that I mean, the market changes. mean, knows where we'll be in a year from now. Right. So what are we trying to do in that quarterly meeting? Why is it so important to have that meeting be kind of different in format than the monthly meeting?

Sara Nay (20:04.654)

Who knows?

Sara Nay (20:16.182)

Yeah. So for again, as long as I've been doing this, we've been planning out marketing in quarterly sprints because marketing is, as you said, marketing is changing, evolving so fast that it's hard to say if someone's like, what are you going do it from a marketing perspective in a year from now? I'd say, I have no idea. Like we'll probably be doing our standard things, but things will evolve and change. so the monthly momentum meetings are going over the quarterly priorities, reviewing the progress. This quarterly optimization then is looking back at the last three months.

six months, these last three months compared to the last year's three months. And so you're really doing a deeper dive into all of the data and information to then say, okay, based on everything that we've learned and all the foundation that we've laid, where should we go next from a marketing perspective?

John Jantsch (20:50.093)

you

Sara Nay (21:03.826)

Should we keep doing certain things? Should we launch new priority projects? And so the optimization loop is really a review of what's working, what's not working, looking at a bigger picture than just a month at a time. But then it's planning out the next quarter priorities to focus on. And then those are the things that you'll cover in your next set of momentum meetings from there. So it all relates and supports each other.

John Jantsch (21:28.301)

All right, so we've really covered the components. Hopefully, again, these are things that maybe you can actually start saying, yeah, we can do that or we need to do that. Or, John, Sarah, please help. We have a couple versions of this done with you, done for you, I guess, would be maybe two ways to describe it. So we have folks that we work with and we do it completely for them. And then not only the fractional CMO component,

where we are guiding their team to install the system, but then to keep improving and keep operating the tactics. I mean, we do certainly want to grow the business and generate revenue. So that will take some tactics inside of the system. Or we can actually, if so we can do that 100 % or we actually have a model where if you've got a team in place, we can just really become your guide or your fractional CMO and help you install the system, help your team.

build this system. You want to talk a little bit about those two models?

Sara Nay (22:32.972)

Yes, of course. So as you said, you know, there's one model where let's say you don't have the team and structure in place. We will come in, we will create the strategy for you. We will build all of these marketing operating system components. And then we also are a full agency as well. So we can handle execution as part of that and really become your marketing in that case, fractional CMO system and outsourced team.

So that's absolutely one of the options that we can work with you on if you're listening, but also if you have that team in place and maybe just not enough leadership or structure or systems, we can come in and still guide your team in creating all of the stuff as more of a fractional CMO, but your team would be empowered to use it and to execute on marketing moving forward. it's really a either or depending on your structure, your goals and what makes sense in your business. But either way, you know, we're, we're sticking to the marketing leadership.

structure and system side of things.

John Jantsch (23:38.923)

no one had to cause an audio gap there. We don't have a CTA.

Sara Nay (23:45.806)

Book a call with me.

John Jantsch (23:47.447)

Do you have a link that you've been sending people to?

Sara Nay (23:52.172)

My Zcal.

John Jantsch (23:55.159)

We don't have like a short link that Shana has created.

Sara Nay (23:55.384)

Let me pull it up. I don't think I do. She might have in your moss email.

John Jantsch (24:03.117)

Let me look real fast.

Sara Nay (24:10.158)

Cause that was the CTA and it wasn't it?

John Jantsch (24:53.165)

that fast start.

Does that work?

Sara Nay (24:58.744)

Yeah, I don't know what the link is. you? You have it, want to shout it out? Okay, perfect.

John Jantsch (24:59.967)

Or clarity. Well, I have it. It goes straight to your Zcal. So it's dtm.world slash fast start.

Okay, so back to the recording.

Okay, Sarah. we've mapped out the whole plan. Why don't you invite people, if they want to know more about this, they want to learn if it fits for them is right. I mean, if you're sitting there saying, Hey, this sounds exactly like what I need. Where should people go?

Sara Nay (25:26.99)

Yeah, I'd love to have a conversation with you to learn more about your business and your goals and to see how we might be able to support you in building out a marketing operating system for your business. If you'd to book a call with me, we'll put the link in the show notes, but it's dtm.world backslash fast start.

John Jantsch (25:45.485)

Awesome. DTM.world slash fast start. All right, Sarah, thanks. And I always end this show by saying, hopefully we'll see you out there on the road. And I think I will see you probably sooner than later. All right, everybody take care.

Sara Nay (25:56.568)

think so. Thanks everyone.