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The Human Mind And What Drives Our Decisions

Marketing Podcast with Michael Liebowitz

michael-liebowitzIn this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview Michael Liebowitz. Michael is the CEO of Magnetic Mind Studio. Magnetic Mind Studio is a laboratory for clear messaging and deeply felt value articulation founded from Michael’s passion for understanding how the human mind works to drive our decisions.

Key Takeaway:

Being able to effectively communicate your value and connect with your audience starts with understanding how and why people make decisions the way we do. The truth is: people don’t want your thing; they want what your thing means to them. In this episode, I talk with Michael Liebowitz about how the human mind works to drive our decisions, and how we can align our messages with how the brain is wired to feel trust.

Questions I ask Michael Liebowitz:

  • [1:23] Can you talk about the basis of your work around the idea that survival is a key driver for decision-making?
  • [3:01] Is the human survival decision you’re referring to “I have to feel like you like me” or “I have to feel like you understand me”?
  • [3:29] We obviously make far fewer life and death decisions today in comparison to the ancestors that you’ve referenced – so why haven’t our brains evolved?
  • [6:10] Does this idea suggest that our marketing should become more tribal in our communication, messaging, design, etc.?
  • [7:33] A line on your website says – People don’t want your thing. They want what your thing means to them. So how do we make that distinction?
  • [10:33] So at what point does the approach of influence turn from being truthful and authentic to manipulation?
  • [12:20] What kind of messages are the best at creating that attraction and desire that you’re talking about?
  • [17:50] Oftentimes the main outcome of what people desire isn’t what they say it is or we make assumptions about what it is – how do you know or uncover the main outcome of what people are after?
  • [20:59] How can people find out more about your work and your masterclass workshop?

More About Michael Liebowitz:

More About The Duct Tape Marketing Consultant Network:

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the duct tape marketing podcast is brought to you by the Gain Grow, Retain podcast, hosted by Jeff Brunsbach and Jay Nathan brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network gain grow retain is built to inspire SAS and technology leaders who are facing day to day. Challenges of scaling Jeff and Jay share conversations about grow, growing and scaling subscription businesses with a customer first approach, check out all the episodes. Recently, they did one on onboarding, such a key thing when you wanna get going, keep and retain those clients. So listen to gain, grow, retain wherever you get your podcast.

John Jantsch (00:48): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Michael Liebowitz. He's the CEO of magnetic mind studio, a laboratory for clear messaging and deep. We felt value articulation founded for Michael's passion for understanding how the human mind works to drive our decision. So, Michael, welcome to the show.

Michael Liebowitz (01:13): Thank you, John. This

John Jantsch (01:14): Is gonna be just some light and fluffy stuff. We're not gonna get in anything very deep at all.

Michael Liebowitz (01:19): Darn it. Cuz I had a whole treaties on the meaning of what I've all prepared. Oh, well,

John Jantsch (01:23): All right. Well let's uh, dive right in. I think you contend that most of our decisions or key driver of many of our decisions is survival. I mean that's a little bit of what your work is based on. So maybe I'll just let you start there.

Michael Liebowitz (01:37): Sure. You know, between making a sort of a rational decision or a survival to decision, well, guess what wins every single time, right? We make survival decisions. I always say to, um, when I get my presentations, you know, all of us are the very proud descendant of some long ago. Ancestor who, when walking on the across the planes did not turn to the right and say, oh, I wonder if that line is hungry. No, we, they ran away. Survival decisions win every time. And the core thesis of my approach to messaging is that one of the primary ways, if not the primary way, our neurology is set up to maintain survival is to make sure we surround ourselves with like kind people who are like ourselves are considered safe. And anything that is not considered like kind is to this neurology considered to be a potential threat to survival. So in messaging, the name of the game is how do you present yourself as like kind so that you get them to that safe zone from which in business, by what you're selling. Cuz if they're in not like kind survival safety mode, no matter how much they need, what you're offering, they will not buy it. Cause there there's a part of their brain saying if we do this, we will die.

John Jantsch (03:00): So is it, I have to feel like you're like me or is it I have to feel like you get me, are those two different things.

Michael Liebowitz (03:08): Those are two different expressions of the same root that we are like each other. And therefore the quote unquote finger quotes, logic of part of the brain goes, I don't want me to die. Therefore things like me probably don't want me to die either. So let's go hang out with things like me.

John Jantsch (03:28): Why, you know, obviously we make far fewer life and death decisions than these ancestors that you, uh, referenced. So why haven't we evolved? I mean, picking the wrong toothpaste, uh, shouldn't be a life or death, uh, decision.

Michael Liebowitz (03:43): Yeah, that's an excellent question. So even though this neurology is going on the way it gets operationalized is not necessarily an actual life or death decision, it really comes down to identity the like kind, this neurology, which I call the critter brain, the light kind, the critter brain is looking for is, does your identity match my identity? And so when it comes to toothpaste or a spatula, whatever, what we do is we choose the one that is presenting itself in a way that matches my identity. Because what if someone sees like an actual person or the, of judge cosmic judges, whatever's gonna notice if we associate ourselves with the wrong identity. Oh no, right then we're gonna get punished or whatever. I mean, this isn't literal this sort of like a metaphor for what's going on in, in, in the mind. But uh, we want to, we want to choose the things that reinforce and match our identity.

John Jantsch (04:50): So, so in some cases, maybe we could soften it and say, it's not necessarily life or death, but maybe it's safer feeling or I, or I,

Michael Liebowitz (04:57): It all

John Jantsch (04:58): Comest make a mistake if I make this choice. Is that more like that? Probably

Michael Liebowitz (05:03): The critter brain doesn't think in those terms, it does only two things. It does survival and it does emotions. All right, this is why there's that saying? Like all buying decisions are emotional, but no one ever said, what the hell they're talking about or which emotion, right? Well, this is the core of it. It just does survival. And it, it communicate it's in the language of emotions. This is safer, not safe, gives all these good feelings, not safe, gives all the bad feelings and safer, not safe is determined. Like, is this match my identity? Or doesn't it. Now these signals get picked up by the human brain, all the logic and all the other stuff that we associate with being human. And that just interprets it to, in the words that you just said, right. That, so the critter brain gives off a signal of, Hey, it's like kind the happy juices go off in the chemistry, human brain picks up and says, oh, I like this because, and it just fills in a story around a rationalization really around why it is that we like it, but it was the critter brain making the real decision.

Michael Liebowitz (06:06): Yeah.

John Jantsch (06:07): So does that suggest that we in our marketing should become even more tribal than, you know, in other words, real trying to appeal to a certain, you know, you're like me and you know, in your ads and your messaging and your choices about design and everything.

Michael Liebowitz (06:26): Yeah. The word tribal is now getting a bad

John Jantsch (06:28): Name. It is, it is these days.

Michael Liebowitz (06:30): However, the term I use and actually part of my process, working with clients is we, the belonging traits, what are the traits that signify belonging and belonging is a baseline state in all human beings. It is without belonging. Life is not survivable, quite literally not survivable. We will all find ways of belonging. This is where you see confirmation bias and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's old motions of trying to find belonging. It's also what Seth Goden was pointing at when he is talking about tribes. Right. He's really just talking about belonging. So how do you signal belonging is, is the answer to that question is like, and to me, if you can dial that up to 11, you are

John Jantsch (07:14): Good. Just know your market is as, as narrow as you focus. It's probably big enough. Yeah. So I have, for years been saying, people don't want what we sell. They want their problem solved. And I read a line off your website that, uh, gets at the same point, but maybe a little more subtle than me. People don't want your thing. They want what your thing means to them. So how do we make that distinction? Yeah. We don't talk about our thing for right.

Michael Liebowitz (07:41): Well, yeah. It's better to talk about what your thing means rather than what it's at least yeah. Human beings. It seems our brains are designed for, to do two things above all else. Number one is to filter out most of reality. Yeah. Right. There's too much to pay attention to. So it filter most of it out based on our belief systems, which tell us what is important to notice. And the second thing is to attach a meaning, to nearly everything meanings, help us make sense of our world. Right? They give us context for understanding. They help us figure out the relative value between things, right. And really when anyone buys anything, what they're really buying into is the meaning. It holds in their world big or small or even micro, right? It's like when I work with someone, the first movement we do is we figure out what's the belief systems underpinning the business.

Michael Liebowitz (08:41): And I like the pressure's off your belief system does not have to be profound. The heavens do not have to part. And there's this universal cosmic knowledge that is imparted upon the, upon your customers. Like no beliefs do not have to be profound. They just have to be true. And when you target your messaging towards beliefs, again, what your beliefs are and your goal is to find other people who believe the same thing. That's the combination of light kind, right? When you're clear on that. And you're clear on what that means to both you and the, and the customer, that's the, the, the magic, the secret sauce fill in whatever metaphor you want that really gets the brain excited. And it says, and that's what creates the, and if along the way, you can identify the problem and solve it. Excellent.

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John Jantsch (10:30): I had Robert chill Downey on this show a few years ago, author of influence. And he had told a story that he actually wrote that book so that people would be armed with the knowledge to not be influenced. And of course it turned actually into the Bible of influence of, you know, how to influence. So at what point does this sort of approach turn from being, you know, truthful and authentic to manipul obviously in the wrong hands, of course we're

Michael Liebowitz (10:55): Talking about, but yeah, exactly. It's tent and focus on what you, if you focus on what you believe to be true about why you do what you do, the beliefs underpinning the business and just say, Hey, we believe X, Y, and Z either explicitly like that, or implied by other ways of, of turning a phrase, it can only result in sort of like the white hat version of it when it comes from a place of, of honesty and introspection and, and truth to answer, like what happens when someone uses it for bad intent? I don't know. I don't go there. And if I sense a someone wants to hire me who in that space, it just doesn't happen. But I, I tend not to attract them and they self select like, oh, this Michael Guy, he's definitely not going there because I'm so clear about my belief system and the meaning behind it, that the wrong customers actually self select out of my system.

John Jantsch (11:56): Well, we could go very far down the, the, the rabbit hole of certain tribes being, uh, conned, uh, into, uh, believing that they're hearing, uh, the truth, but we won't go there. So let's get let's all right. Hopefully we've kind of percolated up, you know, the value of what it is you're talking about. So now let's kind of get practical. Like what kinds of messages, you know, are we talking about being kind of the best at creating that attraction and, and desire that you're talking about?

Michael Liebowitz (12:25): Yeah. There are only from my perspective, there are only two things your audience needs to hear first and foremost, everything else, you is a supporting cast member to these two main players. And in no particular order, number one, what's the main outcome I get from working with you. And for the sake of your listeners, your outcome may or may not be the thing you deliver. Yeah. Right. There's an old saying. I, I, I forget who coined it, it, it may have been Leo Burnett or some other, a golden age of marketing person, but the paraphrase is people don't want a drill. What they want as a hole in the wall. Right. It's like it's classic and everyone knows it. Like the outcome is not, I purchased a drill, the outcome I'm looking for as a whole, right. So what's the main outcome of what you do, what this does in orient your audience in what I call space and time when it relates to marketing, which is, am I in the right space with you right now?

Michael Liebowitz (13:28): Right? What's the context that we're in together. And is it the one I want? So when you clearly communicate the outcome, come, you help them answer that question quickly. Now, most businesses, I mean, this makes sense, right? It's like, you gotta tell 'em what the outcome is. Of course, that makes sense. To me, it's logical. And most businesses do some version of this. Not many of them well do it well, but they do some version of it. The second thing almost no one does. And to me, it's more important than the first one, which is, so number one is, what's the main outcome I get from you. And the second question they're asking is, do we share the same beliefs? Cause this gets back to that safety. If we share the same beliefs, you're safe, I will not quote unquote die. And therefore I can buy from you.

Michael Liebowitz (14:17): And if we don't, oh no, all the red flashes start going off. And by speaking clearly about your belief system, you take the question mark away from your audience, cuz trust me, our neurology is looking for it. Do what do you believe? Do we share the same values or whatever term you wanna put on the, are you like me? And if we give vague or sort of like indeterminate answers to that question, it freaks our brains out. We start going, you know, you're giving me something but not enough. So that's where babies come from a foot. You're like kind a foot and you're not like kind. And we'll usually default to no cuz why risk it? But we just wanna know, are you safe to be around? And the way you do is another word for this is called trust. Of course. Right? And the fastest way to trust is simply to share what you believe like the fastest

John Jantsch (15:18): And that's to me, that's why storytelling has, you know, has become a standard element of marketing today. I, I remember when I started telling people 30 years ago, you know, tell 'em what you believe, tell 'em your story. They're like, no, they don't care about me. Yep. You know, they wanna know what they, what they get. But now it's, you can't pick up a marketing book that doesn't have some aspect of storytelling

Michael Liebowitz (15:40): It.

John Jantsch (15:41): Um,

Michael Liebowitz (15:42): Yeah. Yeah. It is. You really? I mean, there's two. What seem to be opposite facing pieces of advice. Don't talk about, you talk about your company, tell them what you believe. Right? It's like, wait, isn't that about me? It's like, well, yes, they definitely wanna know what you, what your business believes. Now, if you're a, so operator that's you specifically, if you're in a business where there's multiple people, it's the collective here's leadership. Here's what we believe. Once they know that the safety system just calms down. It really does.

John Jantsch (16:18): But there's really a lot of demonstrating that though, too. It's really easy to say, you know, here's our tagline. Here's what we believe. But it's how they see you respond to complaints on Twitter. It's, you know, there's so many things that really go into to really proving that you like saying, trust me,

Michael Liebowitz (16:34): There's two parts to that. One part is from a very early age, we become excellent BS detectors. And what I mean by BS is actually belief system from a very young age, we can Mrs. Morris, when someone is saying something, they don't actually

John Jantsch (16:50): My kindergarten teacher. Okay, go ahead.

Michael Liebowitz (16:53): Yeah, exactly. And it comes out in how we communicate you. We can get a sense for disingenuous communication, right? When, back in the day, when Ford was saying quality is job number one, and yet you could tell it's kind of not right. It's like, okay, you can talk all you want about quality, but you're not embodying it. Not just showing it. You're not embodying it. And the rest of everything you're telling me. So that's a moment. We are excellent BS detectors. And number two. You're absolutely right. When you say it, it's a promise and you have to follow through on that promise various different ways in, you know, how you communicate. And to me, everything is communication. Not just the message. Everything is

John Jantsch (17:44): Communication. I wanna circle back to one of the things you said earlier, because I think this is a real challenge for a lot of people I work with. Anyway, you talked about what's the main outcome I'm gonna get. And I think a lot of times we don't know our customers actually don't always know or they, or you're making assumptions and they're making, you know, like people come to me as a marketer and they tell me they want leads. Well, half the time they just want control over their marketing. You know, they say they want leads. And if we promise 'em leads, we had, you know, were saying, here's the main outcome. But when you get in there and work with a client for many years, you realize that's not actually what they were after. I mean, it kind of was, but it wasn't the, it wasn't the emotional driver.

Michael Liebowitz (18:27): Right? I'll answer that by you. An example of a previous, a past, uh, client of mine. This is a client. They make, uh, cooking gadgets and they were marketing like, Hey, cook your meal fast and always Mo or whatever. Right? All the buzzwords. And this also gets back to beliefs. Don't have to be profound. So the first movement is to find the belief and it turns out after much digging and my background being behavioral neurology, this is actually a therapeutic technique. So I'm actually doing therapy on the, the C-suite during the whole thing. Finally comes out from the CEO. He says, you know, I know this is gonna make me sound superficial, but I love that moment at the dinner party when everyone eats what I, I created and they just look at me like, oh my God, I can't believe you made this right.

Michael Liebowitz (19:18): And digging deeper. The belief was simply, it's fun to show off, right? Like fantastic legit. It's fun to show off. That's the closely held belief underpinning this business and why these people started this business in the first. Well, now you can ask another question, which I, which is the meaning behind the belief. All beliefs have meaning connected to them. Meanings, give context, which is then you ask. Great. So what good things come to you when you're able to show off dig a little deeper turns out well, because everyone deserves to feel valued. Oh my gosh, what's the main outcome of this business. It's not fast, moist, blah, blah, blah, food. It's feeling valued through the creation of foods and such like that. Well, now, you know what the real outcome is. This turned into a message of, do you wanna be the star of the dinner party? Because what circles that square is like, I like get to show off and I get to feel valued from showing off. So now they're talking about dinner parties and these are tools you can use to be the star of the dinner party and notice being the star of the dinner party as an identity, you can say, I am, if anything that starts with I am can be formulated into identity. I am the star of the dinner party, but you can't say I am moist fast cooking.

John Jantsch (20:43): What?

Michael Liebowitz (20:44): Yeah. Does it

John Jantsch (20:44): Make sense? Plus, I'm guessing that you charge more now for which is even better, right? You have first, I'm gonna invite you to tell people how they can find out more about your work. We've obviously scratched the surface, but I noticed you have a, like a two hour kind of masterclass workshop, you know, to everything that you offer monthly. And I, I will have a link to the website and, and that opportunity, because I'm guessing that's probably is easier way to, to dip your toe in the water of, you know, what my, what Michael teaches.

Michael Liebowitz (21:11): Absolutely. Yeah. The thank you for bring up the workshop. The first half is put this in finger quotes for everyone listening is my Ted talk. I haven't actually been on the Ted stage. I just wanna make that clear, but it is that kind of talk about how our neurology is wired up to receive and respond to messaging and the whole psychology and neurology behind the whole system. Well, now that you learn that stuff, how do I apply it to my business? Well, that's the second half is we actually apply what you learn to your specific business in the workshop. So I love learning on opportunities. It's even better when learning opportunities get, turn into, like, how do I apply this to my business right now? So that's what we is really

John Jantsch (21:56): What everybody wants. Yeah. And that's at

Michael Liebowitz (21:58): You come out with a better message than you had coming

John Jantsch (22:00): In, and that's a mind magnetizer.com. Right? Awesome.

Michael Liebowitz (22:04): Correct. Yeah. That's the website and you can go register there and all month through the rest of the year is, is you get able

John Jantsch (22:12): To sign up for, and those are small cohorts or

Michael Liebowitz (22:16): My max me cohort is 10 people.

John Jantsch (22:18): So a little bit of interaction. Yeah.

Michael Liebowitz (22:20): So everyone can get individual attention. When I first started this, I had 15 people in the room and that was a lot of work. So I limited 10.

John Jantsch (22:27): Awesome. Well, Michael, thanks for taking time. Stop by the, a duct tape marketing, uh, podcast. And, uh, hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Michael Liebowitz (22:35): Thank you, John. It's been a pleasure.

John Jantsch (22:37): All right. So that wraps up another episode. I wanna thank you so much for tuning in and you know, we love those reviews and comments. And just generally tell me what you think also did you know that you could offer the duct tape marketing system, our system, your clients, and build a complete marketing consulting coaching business, or maybe level up an agency with some additional services. That's right. Check out the duct tape marketing consultant network. You can find it at ducttapemarketing.com and just scroll down a little and find that offer our system to your clients' tab.

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network and WorkBetterNow.

HubSpot Podcast Network is the audio destination for business professionals who seek the best education and inspiration on how to grow a business.

 

 

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How To Survive And Profit From Radical Change

Marketing Podcast with Jonathan Brill

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview Jonathan Brill. Jonathan is a speaker and advisor managing director of Resilient Growth Partners and a board member at Frost & Sullivan. He’s also the author of Rogue Waves: Future-Proof Your Business to Survive and Profit from Radical Change.

Key Takeaway:

There are economic, technological, and social parts of our world that are changing rapidly today more than ever. Jonathan Brill is a renowned expert on resilient growth and decision-making under uncertainty, and in this episode, he shares how to prepare your business to survive and thrive through the most radical upheavals, turn chaos into profit, and set your company on the course for long-term success.

Questions I ask Jonathan Brill:

  • [1:31] Radical change is the word of the day, isn’t it?
  • [4:40] In your book, you identify 10 trends you think are happening right now and potentially in the near future – can you walk through which ones people should be paying attention to right now?
  • [9:30] In your book, you stated that there’s a systematic way of identifying these radical changes to position yourself, and increase your resilience. What do people need to do differently to position themselves?
  • [12:33] Sometimes, people look out externally in their industry and notice that things are changing in a way that is just going to gut the company. Often, some choose to stick their head in the sand to this because they’re retiring soon. What’s the best way to approach this?
  • [14:56] Is there an undertow coming from COVID that is really kind of wreaking havoc on company culture right now?
  • [19:20] It sounds like there’s a need for constant innovation. Does that need to be a department or does that need to be a part of the culture?
  • [20:29] Where can people find a copy of your book and learn more about your work?

More About Jonathan Brill:

More About The Duct Tape Marketing Consultant Network:

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing podcast is brought to you by the Gain Grow, Retain podcast, hosted by Jeff Brunsbach and Jay Nathan brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network. Gain Grow Retain is built to inspire SAS and technology leaders who are facing day to day. Challenges of scaling Jeff and Jay share conversations about grow, growing and scaling subscription businesses with a customer first approach, check out all the episodes. Recently, they did one on onboarding, such a key thing. When you wanna get going, keep and retain those clients. So listen to Gain, Grow, Retain wherever you get your podcast.

John Jantsch (00:49): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Jonathan Brill. He's a speaker and advisor managing director of resilient growth partners and a board at frost and Sullivan. He's also the author of a book we're gonna talk about today called rogue waves. Futureproof your business to survive and profit from radical change. So, Jonathan, thanks for joining us.

Jonathan Brill (01:18): Thank you for having me, John. It's a pleasure to be here.

John Jantsch (01:21): So I've, I try to go like at least every other show without mentioning the word COVID, but unfortunately there's too many topics or too many interviews where it's relevant. I mean, radical change is the, the day, the word of the day, isn't it?

Jonathan Brill (01:35): It, it sure is. I think we look at things like COVID and we say, Hey, this is an edge case. No, no one could have predicted it. That reality is that when I was at HP, my group actually did identify the shifting likelihood of something like a, so respiratory pandemic and recognize that most companies were misidentifying. The likelihood, the point here is even the ones that did eight of 10 large companies, publicly held companies in the United States failed to identify pandemics as a risk. But the two that did one was CVS health at the insurance, right? Obviously they identified it as a risk, but, but the other one was apple. And they said, Hey, you know, it might Jack up our supply chains a little bit. They didn't really consider the, what happened, what the act of the second domino would fall. And I think that we need to start thinking much more about these seemingly unlikely events and how they'll change our companies, because it turns out that well, any one of these might be unlikely and aggregate. They're actually highly likely spent about 27% of the 20th century dealing with them. And, uh, manager spent about 45% of the 20th century bailing out of these sorts of,

John Jantsch (02:54): And I think that that's your point is that there, a lot of times people will see one thing or another thing. It's like a little wave on the ocean, right. And, but it's the, when they come together, you get this freakish thing that nobody probably could properly prepare for. And that's what tips the boat over. I mean, that's your nautical sort of metaphor, isn't it?

Jonathan Brill (03:12): That that's exactly right. There was a, you know, you see these individually manageable wave is a change or whether it's changing demographics, populations are getting older or emerging technologies like artificial intelligence, you know, or maybe there's an economic shift, like, like massively inflationary pressure, right. From money printing. Yeah. The question that I have is have you thought about what happens when all of those come together? Cause that's exactly what's happening this week.

John Jantsch (03:42): Yeah.

Jonathan Brill (03:43): And the shift is going to be massive. It was a knowable thing, but everyone kind of read that the, the headlines in the newspaper instead of considering the whole newspaper.

John Jantsch (03:55): Yeah. And I think that, I think what we've all learned too is, was the event, which to all pointing to as the pandemic really was just an accelerator of some things that were going on anyway, wasn't it,

Jonathan Brill (04:06): That's typically what happens, you know, there's, uh, I haven't been able to actually find the original source, but linen once said there are decades where weeks happen and there are weeks where decades happen. Right. Right. You know, and we're certainly experiencing the latter right now.

John Jantsch (04:25): Well, and one of my favorites is a Hemingway, uh, quote. I think it's in the sun also rises. The character says I went bankrupt slowly. And then all it's all of a sudden, you know, or something, you know, kind of the same idea. It's like, we don't see the little things that are happening till boom, you know, we're bankrupt. So, um, I love trends. Most people love trends. You identify at least 10, um, in this book that you think are some things that are happening right now. And maybe in the near future, you obviously, we can't unpack the entire 10, but you wanna point to maybe a couple that you think people really should be paying attention to right now.

Jonathan Brill (05:00): Yeah. So was the global futurist at HP and over a number of years, as we were restructuring the firm, we had to figure out what are the things we know will happen over the next decade, over the 2020s. And we identified, we did maybe 15 million of research, not just in this, but in the impacts for us. And we identified 10 major trends that are shaping the next decade. And so we talked a little bit about, you know, changing demographics, you know, and, and these things are like, they're obvious, you know, they're like, they're news headlines now three years ago. They weren't, but they're news headlines now, many of them. So we talked about changing demographic, right. And, and how it's gonna impact labor. Yeah. You know, the cost of labor, but also consumption. You know, if you think about, as people get older, they tend to buy less stuff.

Jonathan Brill (05:52): And they tend to, you know, for the people who inherit, they tend to accumulate capital. So it changes the consumption patterns. We see the explosion of the data economy. So we're seeing, you know, companies like Amazon, right. Generating tremendous amounts of capital, enabling, uh, platform companies on top of them. And the question we need to really be asking is, are they creating new value or are they extracting value? So a good example is like Uber versus Airbnb. Well, Uber has actually made new things possible in cities, new business models possible, uh, new businesses possible. Whereas when you take a look at a company like Airbnb, if they've taken housing off the market, they haven't replaced it with a new product. And so they've transferred value in a lot of cases from the hotel industry into their business. And so the question becomes, you know, are you creating versus extracting value?

Jonathan Brill (06:46): I think that's a really important question in the next decade for a bunch of reasons. Um, the closing innovation window, I'm just kind of choosing, we have kind of this model, like there are 10 things, but you can't keep 'em all in your mind. So, right. I think about what's social, what's economic, what's technological. Those are big buckets. So I'll pick one from each second. One is the closing innovation window. So we're seeing research and development move faster, right? That the life of the, in which you can monetize, uh, a new piece of IP shrinking. And so we're seeing faster product cycles at a certain point that decreases the amount of originality. It changes the way that you innovate. And we're seeing that a lot of industries, uh, pharma right now is, is one that's about to see massive acceleration. And then social change is the, the third of those three big buckets.

Jonathan Brill (07:38): And it, I think we're having a real question when we look out at the future is what is the social contract, right? What is a right versus what is a regulation? So crazy example a year ago, if you'd said, Hey, my, you know, here's my data, it's my right. I own that data. I generated it. Like, I would've agreed with you, but in thinking about in the age of something like COVID right. If my data can save a million lives, should it really be mom? It's a really interesting question. And, and it's one that's gonna play out in a million different ways, you know, over the next decade, should we have, you know, universal, basic income, you know, should that be a right? Should, should I be able to take money from a wealthy person and give it to the poor? Well, we have said, you kind of can't do that increasingly over the last 40 years, but it might really flip in the United States, certainly in Europe.

John Jantsch (08:33): And now let's hear from a sponsor, whether you're looking to sell your business in the near future, or just wanna make it more scalable and profitable WorkBetterNow's Al's virtual assistance can help you get there. Adding a virtual assistant to your team can help you focus on high value activities like business development to boost your bottom line work better. Now, clients say that their virtual executive assistants have made an impact on their business. Well beyond their expectations for only $1,900 a month, you get a full-time assistant who is 100% dedicated to your business. There are no contracts, no additional cost based in Latin America with incredible English, proficiency and business experience work better. Now, assistance undergo a rigorous screening and a onboarding process work better now is currently offering duct tape marketing readers and listeners $150 off per month for three months, just mentioning duct tape to learn more, visit workbetternow.com.

John Jantsch (09:30): Now we're getting into, uh, philosophical and ethics debates. Aren't we, uh, um, you state in the book, there's a systematic way of identifying these radical changes and position yourself, you know, increasing resilience. What, obviously that's a giant topic, but just the thumbnail sketch. What do people need to start doing differently to, to, you know, identify position the themselves?

Jonathan Brill (09:56): Yeah. So first of all, start thinking about like, what are those big topics? What are those big trends? Uh, a number of good ones, useful ones are in the book. They're, they're clearly playing themselves out right now. And that research was done several years ago. So, so we know that there's some validity to them. Start there, ask what would happen if as they overlap, what would be the impact for me? And then what would be the earliest and the latest that they would impact me. Right. So that's kind of horizon scanning is what we call it in kind of strategy, world business strategy world, and then ask, what are the steps I need to take to increase my optionality and to increase my potential by the earliest and the latest time that, that they would impact me. The, the interesting thing that I hear a lot is, well, yeah, sure.

Jonathan Brill (10:47): These are all unlikely events. We can't prepare for everything, but I think the more important question is do these events cluster in terms of their impact on us and yes, they do. So when you take a look at the major causes and decrease in firm value, and once again, I'm talking fortune 2000 firms, but I think it attracts to smaller businesses too. You know, the question is, you know, what are those? And they fit into four buckets, financial, operational, external change and strategic change. So, so our demand forecasts are off the most common one. Well, we spend upwards of 90% of our brain cycles and companies focusing on finances and operations, right? The things we can control, but 75% is that decreases in firm value are a result of external change, right? Are strategic change. And so we need to have our people digging down, looking at what's going on in terms of our finances and operations, for sure. But we need to have them looking out, you know, we've gotta be using the microscope as well as the telescope looking out to see what's going on the horizon. And so I, about

John Jantsch (11:56): That, go ahead.

Jonathan Brill (11:58): I, I think that's a really important kind of concept to, to look at like structurally, what would these changes do to our finances or operations or our external environment and our strategy because typically kind of, there's certain shapes that they there's certain shapes of stress for companies and how do we increase our resilience? You know, and, and I know you, this is really marketing and external focused. How do we do that for our customers? How do we create products that increase resilience for our customers in the same sort of way? So it's a, both a process and a product innovation concept.

John Jantsch (12:33): So what do you, I mean, I know what you say, but to this, but you know, some people look out there and externally in their industry, things are changing in a way that is just gonna gut the company. You know, it's just, but yet I'm a 60 year old board member. Am I going to say, okay, we have to stop selling classified ads now and give them for free because otherwise, you know, we're gonna, that business is going away and then we'll be irrelevant as a newspaper. I mean, how do you know, I'm sure there are people out there that look at that and say, well, we're just gonna stick our head in the sand because I'm outta here in a few years.

Jonathan Brill (13:06): Sure, sure. A lot of professional services businesses are having that problem this year, like dentistry businesses, right. That you tend dentists tend to be demographically older and you're seeing a lot of that change going on right now. I, I think the question to be asking, you know, is whether the goal is acquisition or whether it's shaping, right. Do we want to build out work within a new ecosystem or, or is our goal to be acquired in, in a situation like that, uh, where we can't optimize to profitability or we can't pivot to profitability. Yeah. We need to figure out some new ecosystem relationship and that sort of thing's been happening in all of the, all of the small, medium business areas. Uh, oddly in, in the mortuary business, you know, where we've seen aging populations, demographic shifts, consolidation of materials, brands, Costco, selling coffins, I was

John Jantsch (14:09): Gonna say, even societal find

Jonathan Brill (14:11): Those new relationships,

John Jantsch (14:12): Even societal change about funerals and right.

Jonathan Brill (14:16): Yeah. Yeah. And so that's good. The top question is, is like, do a, you know, is the goal to be you to hold on. If we say we can't hold on, is the goal to be acquired or is the goal to build some kind of partnership ecosystem relationship with kind of a platform provider? Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:33): So all,

Jonathan Brill (14:33): All of those aren't options, I would emotionally want as a get where you're going, but that's kind of the strategic palette.

John Jantsch (14:40): Yeah. So over the last decade or so, you know, culture's become such a buzzword in, you know, in the corporate environment and, and not just that people have realized it has real value to, you know, to the company, to the customer in using your metaphor. Is there a, is there an under to coming from, you know, COVID that, that is really kinda wreaking havoc on company culture right now.

Jonathan Brill (15:05): So within what we're talking about, I think these a larger frame within the book, which is, you know, when you have to deal with the first thing everyone does is stick their head in the ground, right? And so you need to generate awareness. And whoever starts saying that the sky is falling, you know, people are gonna take out the Spears and start throwing on them and, and I'm gonna start mixing metaphors as well. So, so you have the ABCs of resilient change of resilient growth. So you have a awareness, you have behavior change. If people don't have the skillsets to make sense of the future, right. It doesn't really matter that you have awareness. It's just chicken. Little, if you get ahead of it early enough, if you make those small steps to increase your optionality and potential over time, then we'll talk about what those are.

Jonathan Brill (15:49): You can get ahead of it, increase your flex building. And then the third is culture, right? How do you create a culture where those behaviors are acceptable? Because a lot of the time we're talking about, you know, adapting to change, as opposed to trying to, to keep things, keep the ship righted, right. How, how to be a kayak instead of, uh, an air aircraft carrier. Right, right. Um, because an craft carrier can make it down any storm, but you know, only in the ocean, not in a class four rapid kayak is a much more flexible vehicle, but you know, much less stable and, and our volatile times that we're moving into, I think we need to really rethink whether our goal is to be, you know, uh, impervious to any thing or ready for a changing sea, a changing environment, because that's, the more likely disruptor is a change in the environment than, you know, than competing against a more aggressive situation that we already know.

Jonathan Brill (16:46): So in, in terms of behavior, there's something I call the rogue method where, you know, basically what you wanna be doing the, as a board member, as a strategy person within your organization is saying, okay, R and the rogue method is, is reality. Testing is our baseline assumption about what is going to remain the same. The second is observing the system, right? Can, can you understand independent of knowing all of the details, what the components are of the ecosystem you work in, and with using that technique, understand if there's a change in the upper left hand corner of your model, how it impacts the lower right hand corner of the rub Goldberg, right? And, and that's a skillset, that's something you can build. The third is generating the range of futures. And so this is the thing that I think was a big challenge in 2020 is everybody said, Hey, we're gonna do 6% better or worse next year.

Jonathan Brill (17:42): But then you had situations where AMC, the movie theater company took on a billion dollars and still make go bankrupt or situations like zoom, where they did 26 times growth. Right. In, in our volatile world, you can't do traditional strategic planning and have it work. Right? Yeah. So you've gotta plan for the range of possible futures, not the ones you want and then think about, you know, okay. Like what would cause you to, to get to one outcome? What would cause you the best outcome? What would cause you to get to the, the worst outcome and what are the small decisions you can make today, you know, in terms of how you do contracts in terms of whether you make decisions earlier, late, like simple things that will shift the probabilities of success for your company, and then how do you experiment? So most companies, they really just try and do one thing again and again, better and better and better and better and hope that the world still needs that solution in the future. Right. Right. Like that's not a viable solution world where you have radical change. Right. The environment changes. It's not just the, it's not just your competition. It's not a feature based competition. It's a platform, you know, it's really about how do you deal with radical change? How do you deal with a change in the environment? Can your aircraft carrier survive on a class four rapid, or are you really better off in a kayak?

John Jantsch (19:10): You're really talking about constant innovation, of course. And so does that, I mean, does that need to be a department or does that need to be culture?

Jonathan Brill (19:20): I, it can be a department, but it has to be culture, right? Yeah. Like you, you know, the army, no matter how big your, your army is, it has an infantry and it has special forces. Right? Right. Like you want, you probably want both, but the question is really whether your culture can absorb the innovation, whether your culture is set up to, to listen to people who say, I have a future, I cannot yet prove I see a future. I cannot yet prove. Right. And, and can you support those types of people in your organization that type of thinking in your organization, and then go through the validation process of, you know, is this the right scale of risk, right. Is this too lower risk, too high risk for us to take, can you have that conversation? Or are you just going and saying, Hey, we want you to be, but we won't protect you if you fail. And by the way, we will protect you if you take no risk.

John Jantsch (20:18): Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's

Jonathan Brill (20:20): In, in

John Jantsch (20:21): Nutshell that explains most leadership, true businesses.

Jonathan Brill (20:23): Right? Like you see a lot

John Jantsch (20:25): Of

Jonathan Brill (20:26): Yeah. Especially in mental management.

John Jantsch (20:27): Yeah. Yeah. Right. Jonathan tell people where they can, uh, find out more about obviously the, but, but your work, if they'd like to check out some of what you're working on.

Jonathan Brill (20:36): Yeah. I have a website, Jonathanbrill.com. The book, you should get it on Amazon. It's called rogue waves. And please follow me on LinkedIn. I try and drop something useful every day. Awesome.

John Jantsch (20:49): Well, again, thanks for sub by the duct tape marketing, uh, podcast. And, uh, hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road, John, then

Jonathan Brill (20:55): Looking forward to it, John.

John Jantsch (20:57): All right. So that wraps up another episode. I wanna thank you so much for tuning in and, you know, we love those reviews and comments. And just generally tell me what you think also did you know that you could offer the duct tape marketing system, our system to your clients, and build a complete marketing consulting coaching business, or maybe level up an agency with some additional services. That's right. Check out the duct tape marketing consultant network. You can find it at duct tape, marketing.com and just scroll down out a little and find that offer our system to your client's tab.

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network and WorkBetterNow.

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is it too late to start a podcast

Is It Too Late To Start A Podcast?

Marketing Podcast with Dan Franks

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview Dan Franks. Dan is the Co-founder and president of Podcast Movement, the world’s largest conference and trade show for the podcast industry. He is a CPA and was formerly the Business Manager and Director of Live Events for Midroll Media.

Key Takeaway:

It seems like everyone today has a podcast. You might be wondering if it’s too late to start yours – the short answer? No. It’s not too late. The market may be more crowded than it once was, but people are still listening to podcasts at a growing rate. Podcasts are and will continue to be an amazing marketing tool that gives you a way to build a community and gives you a platform to advertise your products and services. In this episode, Dan Franks shares why podcasting isn’t dead and advice on starting your own.

Questions I ask Dan Franks:

  • [1:11] Can you give me a little bit of the history behind Podcast Movement?
  • [1:55] What does Podcast Movement look like today?
  • [3:26] What’s been your history, and how did you get into podcasting?
  • [5:12] If you were talking to someone who was thinking about starting a podcast, would you tell them now it’s too late?
  • [11:31] What you’ve seen people doing to make podcast guesting just as effective as podcast hosting?
  • [13:03] Have you seen any really out-of-the-box uses for being a guest on a podcast?
  • [14:32] Companies today are coming up with different uses for podcasts – what kind of trends along those lines are you seeing?
  • [15:56] If I’ve got my show going, how do I get more listeners?
  • [18:44] What’s the best starter set up for somebody who wants to get going on a podcast?
  • [20:54] What’s your current podcast setup?
  • [22:52] Where can people find out more about your work?

More About Dan Franks:

More About The Certified Marketing Manager Program Powered By Duct Tape Marketing:

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the duct tape marketing podcast is brought to you by the Salesman Podcast, hosted by will Barron brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network. Look, if you work in sales, wanna learn how to sell or just peek at the latest sales news. Check out the sales podcast where host Will Barron helps sales professionals learn how to find buyers and in big business in effective and ethical ways. One of my favorite episodes lately, how to personalize your sales outreach at massive scale, who doesn't want to do that, listen to the salesman podcast, wherever you get your podcast.

John Jantsch (00:45): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Dan Franks. He's a co-founder and president of podcast movement, the world's largest conference and trade show for the podcast industry. And he's a CPA was formerly the businessman manager and director of live events for mid role media. So Dan, welcome to the show.

Dan Franks (01:07): Thanks for having me, John I'm super excited.

John Jantsch (01:10): So, so give me a little bit of the history of podcast movement. I guess let's start there. The trade show that you run and known.

Dan Franks (01:18): Yeah, so there was four of us who were big time podcast fans and podcasters ourselves. And, uh, this would've been 20 12, 20 13, somewhere in there and quickly realized that it was a, a somewhat lonely space sitting in closets recording, you know, your own voice and maybe having a guest. And at that time it was trying to figure out how to record people on Skype. And it was really just a very impersonal, medium to be a creator. And so getting together, we thought it would be really neat to create some kind of environment where we could get together with other creators and learn, you know, learn from each other, but meet each other and really just kind of bring some personal connections to this creation side of things. And that's where we started in 2014.

John Jantsch (01:56): So, so I guess now tell me, what does it look like today?

Dan Franks (01:59): Yeah, so at that time it was, you know, kind of a community gathering. We about five or 600 people at that first year event, which is, was really big way bigger than we thought it would be. We actually launched it on Kickstarter. So really just kind of throwing it against the wall to see if anyone else was out there. That thought it was a good idea. And since then, it's grown to a twice a year event where each event gets, you know, somewhere between a thousand and over 3000 attendees each year, and then a Facebook community with 70,000 members, that's super active, the largest Facebook community for podcasters. So really just grown to, you know, a lot of other things too. We've got a daily newsletter, that's got over 25,000 subscribers. That's all about, you know, podcasting and news and tips and tricks and all that. So really grown from just that, you know, idea of a game gathering to now, this living, breathing kind of media machine, all for people who create podcasts,

John Jantsch (02:50): You know, it's funny, you mentioned that about it being kind of a lonely space. I actually started mine in, in 2005. So I, I may be one of the, the old school oldest school, particularly of continuously running because you know, a lot of people that started when I did, I think it was hard to do. It was hard to get people to listen because there weren't, you know, we didn't have the iPhone, you know, app that, uh, came, you know, delivered with the iPhone. And so I think a lot of people did give up on it because they really weren't building any audience or didn't see any point in it, uh, no, necessarily, but then obviously once it became much more mainstream, probably around 2012, 13 is when it really probably took off again. So, so what's been your history. I mean, you said you were a, a CPA, uh, that's not necessarily an industry that jumped into podcasting early on. So, so what was kind of were, was that a real differentiator for you as a CPA or was podcasting just a side gig?

Dan Franks (03:41): Yeah, so, I mean, it started as a CPA sitting, you know, working 80 hour weeks behind a computer, just kind of, you know, plugging and chug chugging numbers and trying to figure out what to do to pass the time. And podcasting was from a listening standpoint, something that really filled that gap. And then from there, you know, just kind of thinking, Hey, maybe I should try this. A lot of people do with while listening to a podcast, it's very common thing. And yeah, ended up connecting with a coworker who had similar thoughts. We were both accountants. We, at that time were specializing in, they call it outsource, uh, CFP. So we were kind of helping small business owners with their financial, not just taxes, but a lot of their financial planning and book keeping and situations like that. And we thought it would be real cool to kind of talk about small business, best practices and interview small business owners and that kind of thing.

Dan Franks (04:28): Yeah. And now that's like one of the most common niches in podcasting, a small business, but you know, 20 12, 20 13, it was still a little bit more of a, of a open pond, so to speak and yeah, just started that way and really kind of immersed ourselves into that creator community. And like I said, the one thing led to another and we just really enjoyed being creators ourselves and getting no other creators. And that led to us kind of putting together that, you know, curating that community and, and led to a podcast movement as it is today.

John Jantsch (04:56): You know, you mentioned that. I mean, it was such a great differentiator right early on. I mean, it really kind of raised a lot of people to the ranks of authority, but you have a lot of people now that're saying, you know, the world doesn't need another podcast. I mean, there's too many of 'em. I know the answer to this, but I'm gonna ask you if you were talking to somebody thinking about starting a podcast and they had a good idea and a good platform, would you tell 'em now it's, it's too late?

Dan Franks (05:19): No, it's not too late, but it's definitely crowded and whatever you can think of that you wanna find a podcast about for the most part, there's a podcast out there. So really the approach, you know, back then, wasn't, you know, back then we could say, is there a podcast on this topic? There's a good chance. It isn't. So you can dive in and be the one and kind of, you know, have that, that early first to market, uh, effect so to speak. Whereas now there's pretty much ever everything out there. So, you know, what's the angle is that you're going to do it at better quality. Are you gonna tell better stories? Are you going to have better guests? Are you going to bring a different angle of ex your experience to the table? Are you representing a brand that hasn't ever had that outlet to speak to its customers or its potential customers? So what are you doing that's different that would just make somebody who's searching your topic in the iTunes, you know, apple play store or in Spotify searching your topic and come across yours and make you pick yours versus the other one that has to do with, uh, you know, a similar topic.

John Jantsch (06:14): Yeah. And I, I think the good news is yes, the market is crowded, but there's also, you know, millions and millions of more people listening to podcasts. So, so every niche that you could think of has got a pretty good size audience, I suspect.

Dan Franks (06:28): Yeah. And it's, you know, it's exciting now because back even five years ago, really to be a successful podcast, a lot of people saw it, meaning you get over 10,000 listeners and you start to be able to sell ads and have advertisers on your show and you make money with the podcast. Whereas now there's so many different definitions of success when it comes to your podcast. It could be, yes. I want to get a whole lot of listeners and sell advertisements, or it could be, I have this product or service that I'm trying to start on the side. And the podcast is meant to be a funnel for that or, or, you know, some, so, so in that particular instance, okay, success, isn't 10,000 plus listeners and being able to sell ads it's can I convert one of my 100 listeners every month to being a customer?

Dan Franks (07:09): And then that's way more, you know, way more profitable for you if that's your goal than just trying to, you know, fight for advertisers. So, you know, now I think there's so many, any more opportunities and with tools like Patreon and all these, where you can kind of, uh, launch these additional add-ons for your listeners. Now, you don't necessarily, again, need those thousands and thousands of listeners. You just need either listeners who are gonna convert for you or your business, or who are going to kind of support you as a creator from that, you know, crowdfunding type standpoint, that premium offerings type standpoint. So just so many more ways now to define success.

John Jantsch (07:44): Well, and I'm, I'm glad you touched on it too, because I tell business owners all the time, you know, think of it as a potential lead generation, uh, tool as well. I mean, if you're, I'm a consultant, if let's say I'm targeting, you know, midsize company CEO as well, I'm gonna do a show, getting best practices of mid-size company CEOs, and I'm gonna have 'em on my show. It's gonna be great content, but at some point some of them are gonna go, oh, I'll take your phone call now and listen to what you know, you, I mean, so you're not using it to sell necessarily, but you're using it to get access to a potential target market. I, I think that one of the most underutilized, you know, aspects of podcasts, you become a member of the media.

Dan Franks (08:25): Yeah. And, and another thing that kind of, that, that reminds me of is one of the things we see a lot now are like professionals. You know, we talked about the accountant thing, but professionals who are almost talking shop amongst themselves, and it's not meant for the customer, it's meant for other people in your position. So for instance, you might be some sort of specialized surgeon that there's only, you know, a thousand of you in the world, but if you're doing a podcast just for, you know, you and your fellow colleagues and you start listening, everyone else starts listening to the show. Well, then you've got these super high dollar advertisers who desperately want to get in front of that particular type of doctor, you know, people aren't reading magazines anymore. And, you know, there's limited ways to get in front of just that targeted audience.

Dan Franks (09:05): But if you have a podcast where, okay, it maybe only has 150 listeners an episode, but 150 of 'em are the exact type of doctor that you're trying to get in front of for your, you know, piece of medical equipment or whatever it is. There's hardly any other way to get in front of that group in such a targeted way. So again, like there's, we see that type of thing start popping up or dentists in a lot of it's in the medical, but it just becomes such a, you know, such a targeted way that you can, you know, create content and get in front of those advertisers that become super profitable. And some, I talked to one doctor who started taking less and less shifts to put more and more focus. And you know, the starting salary there is already pretty good, but the podcast is doing better. So it's pretty exciting.

John Jantsch (09:45): And now let's hear from a sponsor, whether you're looking to sell your business in the near future, or just wanna make it more scalable and profitable Work Better Now, as virtual assistance can help you get there. Adding a virtual assistant to your team can help you focus on high value activities like business development to boost your bottom line Work Better Now, clients say that their virtual executive assistants have made an impact on their business. Well beyond their expectations for only $1,900 a month, you get a full-time assistant who is 100% dedicated to your business. There are no contracts, no additional cost based in Latin America with incredible English, proficiency and business experience work better. Now assistance undergo a rigorous screening and onboarding process work better now is currently offering duct tape marketing readers and listeners $150 off per month for three months, just mentioning duct tape to learn more, visit workbetternow.com.

John Jantsch (10:42): So let's flip the mic around. Um, a lot of times when people talk about podcasting, they think, oh, okay, I have to start a podcast to use podcasting. I actually started an entire company called podcast bookers, sorry, there's my ad podcast, bookers.com that that our whole intent was to actually get people on podcasts as guests. And I think a lot of times, certainly a lot of people like to be on shows, but actually making that a very intentional part of your marketing, uh, activity to get on the right shows to get the exposure, you know, to get maybe the scene as well. You know, an expert you're gonna get content, but the little dirty little secret is, I dunno about you Dan, but when somebody comes on my show, I promote the heck out of that show. I promote the heck out of the links that they mentioned, you know, on the show. So it's the greatest way to get back links today. So talk to me about, you know, your idea or what you've seen people doing to make podcast guesting, just as effecti as podcast hosting.

Dan Franks (11:38): Yeah. So, I mean, obviously there's services like the one you provide that kind of curates what shows would be best for you as a potential guest, but you know, that's something and you would say this too, that someone, if they wanted to, you know, roll their sleeves up and put in the dirty work, they could do that themselves. And I think there's a lot of value that goes into finding those right fits for you as a guest to be on. I, I like to say like, look at the longevity of these shows that you're potentially sure looking to get on because quite honestly, a lot of people do get that shiny object syndrome, right. And start their own show and you might get pitched to be a guest on that show and it looks good because it's this fun idea and you go back and check it out after your episode is released.

Dan Franks (12:14): Like six months later, you check it out and the show's, you know, sunset and no one's gonna ever hear your show again, because it's gone it's off the air. So yeah, I think, you know, as you're, if you're looking to be intentional about being a guest go, you know, research shows spend some time find those best practices or again, you know, work with someone like you, but yeah, just getting in front of those audiences. And again, like I said about those people that can, you know, buy advertisements on very specialized shows, that same approach can be taken to being a guest. You can find very specialized shows that are the exact right audience that you're looking to get in front of. Yeah. And if you bring something compelling other than just a pitch for yourself, but something compelling, you know, an expertise that maybe some, one else couldn't provide or that, that show was never featured before, you know, you can be as much of a value add to that show as, you know, getting that value in return.

John Jantsch (13:01): I had a client tell me this one and I'd love to hear, you know, if you've seen any really out of the box uses that he actually went and found shows that other guests were kind of his profile of who he was looking for. He'd go beyond the show. And then he would go through the list of guests and contact them, say, Hey, I saw you were on this show too. You know, I really loved your episode. You know, maybe, you know, I'd love to, I'd love to meet you and hear more about what you do. And he, he actually uses it as a somewhat aggressive lead generation or lead mining approach.

Dan Franks (13:32): Yeah. I mean, I think there's a couple different angle there where being on podcasts or hosting podcasts really kind of put you in connection with people that otherwise you wouldn't be able to. So I know a lot of people who host Joe's and bring on guests who otherwise, if they had just cold emailed this person, they'd never make this connection, whether it's a famous person or an influencer in their space, same thing goes with that. If you have that, that, like you said, that, that commonality, Hey, we were both on this show and I, I really enjoyed your episode. Like, can we connect that's, you know, one, a foot in the door that you otherwise wouldn't have had that to be able to relate to people. So yeah, a lot of different ways to skin the cat in terms of leveraging podcasts and guesting and being a guest and having guests, you know, to further, you know, your personal or your professional brand.

John Jantsch (14:14): So in the end, we're really just talking about content, audio content, right. And so a lot of people think in terms of it as a broadcast out to the world, but I'm in, I'm seeing one trend I'm seeing is increasingly companies are using it, you know, even internally or communities are using it internally, just as a communications means what kind of trends along those lines are you seeing?

Dan Franks (14:35): Yeah. We're starting to see a lot of, like you said, companies who are not necessarily replacing, but supplementing that weekly, you know, company update with an audio version of it, or maybe they're interviewing whether it's executives or just interviewing other employees of the company to where you can kind of, you know, learn the stories of the people that you either work with, or that are maybe in other departments. So really just kind of bringing a little more personality to what otherwise would be that weekly team update email. Yeah. I'm also seeing yeah. Municipalities and cities and counties use both YouTube. So video style, but also podcasts for those weekly, you know, updates that the city might send out. You know, don't forget trash is getting picked up, you know, late this week cuz of the holiday. And that sounds super boring, but there's a lot of people who, Hey, I just want to hear that, you know, three minute update from the city and I'm more likely to listen to the podcast than read the newsletter. So that's a super exciting trend we're seeing. And then, you know, a little bit in a similar way, we're seeing these, you know, companies use it a little bit more for content marketing and, and communications with customers or, or potential customers. So in a similar way of, you know, disseminating information as, you know, municipality or a company with it for internal communication, we're seeing a lot of that for external as well. So a lot of kind of newer developments in extensions of what podcasts might be.

John Jantsch (15:51): All right. So a, I know you don't have the silver bullet answer to this, but I know you also get asked this question a lot. So I got my show going, how do I get more listeners?

Dan Franks (16:00): Yeah, no, that is, and you mentioned in, you know, 2005, it was hard to find listeners because you know, there weren't that many of them to begin with the limited shows, but limited listeners. And now it's the opposite problem. Lots of shows and lots of listeners. Lot of what we see working really well are, is cross promotion between shows, right? I know, you know, on some of your episodes, you have, I think it's paid sponsorships, but it's podcasts advertising on another podcast and new shows can do that, have that same effect on one another, just by finding shows, maybe in a similar niche or that might have complimentary audiences and really help each other promote like, Hey, if you like my, this other show you should check out. And we know it works because we see the big, the biggest networks in the world cross promoting their own shows on their own shows.

Dan Franks (16:41): So that's a great way. Just once you've got a show going, you've got a track record, reach out to similar shows. We also see something called feed drops done on a somewhat regular basis. And that's when you find those same shows, maybe develop that rapport with them by by cross-promoting. And then you actually drop one of your episodes on their feed and they'll drop one of their episodes on your feed. So you're not just telling them about, you know, telling your audience about this show and you might record a custom intro on the front end and say, Hey, you know, this week we're taking off, but we've got this special bonus episode of a show that I think you're really gonna like, and then the, they listen to it and then they'll seek it out and subscribe. So a lot of kind of ways like that, where again, everything we do is community focused. Yeah. Um, at podcast movement and that's a community focused type way to help yourself grow and other people as well.

John Jantsch (17:27): I tell you what I've done a couple times and it's been really fun, especially when I have like a new book coming out or something like that. So I have a reason to be very promo emotional myself is I'll actually have a guest host. So I'll actually have somebody come on my show, who does a show and interview me on my own podcast. And now obviously it gives 'em an opportunity to, or, or she to promote their show. So another kind of fun twist.

Dan Franks (17:50): Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's all kinds of things you can do. And that's the fun thing about podcasting and, and YouTube and blogging and anything else where, you know, there's not really anyone telling you what you can and can't do. You can just come up with ideas like that, try it. And if it bombs, don't do it again. But if it works, which a lot of times it does, then, you know, you know, it might go after and do it again.

John Jantsch (18:10): So let's, we a geek out forever on this. So I'll try to keep it short. You know, let's talk just a moment about the tech for podcasting. When I first started, I actually recorded phone calls. I had a little device that I bought from the FBI. I think that plugged in, it was almost like tapping the phone and then it would go into an external recorder and, and I would have to upload that file. It was a mess. It was a lot it's, it's why a lot of people quit early because it was so much work. Now, of course, we've got where you and I are recording this on Riverside. You know, there's all kinds of tools to transcribe, do all this stuff at a minimum. What's in your opinion, the best kind of starter set up for, you know, somebody who wants to get going on a podcast.

Dan Franks (18:51): Yeah. I think the best starter set up is to get a basic USB microphone. There's several out there that you can research and they're, you know, 50 between 50 and a hundred dollars. It's an investment for sure. But it's not a gigantic one, right. Plugs directly into your computer or your laptop. Uh, they dynamic microphones usually. So they're pretty good about canceling out external noises. Right. And yeah, so like from a technical setup, like bare bones, USB microphone, the two that we really like are the audio Technica, uh, 2100, I believe is the current model. And then there's a Q2 Q2 U by Sampson. Those two are very good. They come with little Mike stands. So really those plugged into your laptop and a semi quiet environ, we'll give you pretty good results just to start. And then there's all kinds of like hosting companies out there that'll provide free service.

Dan Franks (19:37): Anchor is the most known one, but some of the really good ones out there red circle is one. I really like, uh, that is free hosting. And you can, yeah. You know, put a, get a podcast ready to go for somewhat minimal investment. Now I don't necessarily think you should just like get on there, plug the microphone in record, publish a podcast. Definitely think there's some, you know, planning and, you know, mapping out what you want this show to be and getting some episodes under your belt before launching. But you know, at bare minimum, it's not a giant investment. We were talking before getting on the air, I'm in a room with a road caster, which is a giant mixer with fancy lights and a bunch of mic microphones all over. Those are cool to have, but definitely think people should, you know, get started, make sure they like it. You know, my parents used to always, you know, we'll buy you, you know, something small and make sure you like it. And then we'll get you the expensive bike. If you actually, you know, show us, you actually wanna ride the bike on a regular basis. Same thing with this. Like you can definitely go more expensive, but make sure it's something you wanna with before spending too much.

John Jantsch (20:34): Okay. My current every day, Mike is as sure what's this one S SM seven B, I think they call sure. SM seven B into a cloud lifter, which lifts the gain into a two mix mixer channel that, or it's actually a four mixer channel. I just use two channels. That was probably a hundred dollars. So, I mean, all, all in all pretty professional setup, you know, under a grant. And what's your current setup,

Dan Franks (20:56): Dan? The one I'm using here in this little, uh, studio at my coworking space, it's as sure SM seven B the same microphone. Yeah, probably one of the, the, the better high end microphones there. But like I said, the roader a mixer, which it's a great mixer. It's really good if you're recording three or four people at once in the same location and

John Jantsch (21:12): Like the Eagles are there and they wanna perform. There

Dan Franks (21:15): You go. There you go.

John Jantsch (21:17): Cause it could handle that.

Dan Franks (21:18): Yeah, for sure. But yeah, I mean, it's, you know, like I said, most, a lot of people would not notice the difference between the listener. When I say, say people, the difference between the a hundred dollars setup and the thousand dollars setup, a lot of it is how you use it, what your recording environment is like, if you're, you know, got the window open and there's someone mowing the lawn outside, it doesn't matter how expensive your setup is. It's still gonna sound like the window's open and someone's mowing the lawn outside. But you know, everything from, uh, I, I know people, I know very large podcast who record in their closet because, you know, close everywhere and really dampens the sound and creates a really nice recording environment. I know someone who's a, a college professor who wears his graduation gown kind of throws it over him as he records. And again, it's like a little recording booth. So, uh, a lot of the podcasters you listen to on a regular basis, they're making due with whatever they can in the house. I mean, that's something that anyone and everyone could figure out kind of a solution for

John Jantsch (22:12): One of my first guests early on was Tim Ferris, right after the four hour work work week had come out and he was on a mobile phone walking on a windy day. So you can imagine what that sounded like.

Dan Franks (22:24): Yeah. And you know, a lot of people now, the iPhone microphone and the, in the AirPod microphones are not horrible, not recommended, but you know, just technology as you, you were referencing earlier has gotten so much better even on those handheld devices again. Yeah. Maybe don't walk down the streets of Chicago on the phone for, for a podcast recording, but you know, if the best you have is your, you know, your iPhone phone, it might make due for that, you know, some of those test episodes.

John Jantsch (22:53): So Dan tell people where they can find out more about your work and certainly, uh, check out the next and maybe tell us when the next podcast movement is.

Dan Franks (23:00): Yeah. So, uh, podcastmovement.com. We've got all of our daily newsletter up there, all kinds of, uh, tips and tricks and advice for new podcasters, as well as, uh, existing podcast and industry professionals and podcast movement right now happens twice a year. So the end of March, 2022 is our next one. And then our flagship event is this August in Dallas. So two big events, hopefully getting back into in person event action this year and yeah. Looking forward to continuing to grow.

John Jantsch (23:27): Yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks for stopping by the duct tape, mark marketing podcast, Dan, and, uh, hopefully we'll run into you one of these days at a podcast movement or on the road somewhere

Dan Franks (23:36): Looking forward to it. Thanks, John.

John Jantsch (23:38): All right. That wraps up another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. I wanna thank you so much for tuning in, feel free to share this show. Feel free to give us reviews. You know, we love those things. Also, did you know that we had created training, marketing training for your team? If you've got employees, if you've got a staff member that wants to learn a marketing system, how to install that marketing system in your business, check it out. It's called the Certified Marketing Manager program from Duct Tape Marketing. You can find it at ducttapemarketing.com and just scroll down a little and find that tab that says training for your team.

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network and WorkBetterNow.

HubSpot Podcast Network is the audio destination for business professionals who seek the best education and inspiration on how to grow a business.

 

 

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How To Build A Winning Coaching Business

Marketing Podcast with Marc Mawhinney

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview Marc Mawhinney. Marc is a lifelong entrepreneur who helps coaches get more clients without paid advertising. He achieves this with his coaching programs, his podcast Natural Born Coaches, his Facebook group The Coaching Jungle, and his exclusive print newsletter – Secret Coach Club.

Key Takeaway:

There are certainly a lot of people jumping into the coaching profession. Building a successful coaching business isn’t rocket science, but it does take following proven steps and building things properly from the ground up. In this episode, Marc Mawhinney and I walk through how to cut through the noise today and what it takes to build a profitable coaching business.

Questions I ask Marc Mawhinney:

  • [1:37] How long have you yourself been a coach and where’d you get started with your training?
  • [2:59] How do you find that you’re able to cut through that noise that you mentioned?
  • [4:27] How do you get clients without paid advertising?
  • [6:12] If I’m just getting started as a coach and need to get clients, is there a channel that you would tell people is a great place to get a jumpstart?
  • [7:38] When you are working with coaches, what’s the thing they get wrong most often?
  • [9:38] How does somebody who doesn’t have a reputation already go about building a reputation of influence or expertise?
  • [11:45] What are some of the practices that you see that top-tier coach coaching businesses do?
  • [13:52] What do you see successful coaches doing to actually stimulate referrals?
  • [16:07] Is there a delivery mechanism you see that works best for coaching nowadays?
  • [19:21] Are there any trends that you see in coaching right now you think people ought to be paying attention to?
  • [20:18] Where can more people find out about your programs and your work?

More About Marc Mawhinney:

More About The Duct Tape Marketing Consultant Network:

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing podcast is brought to you by the Salesman Podcast, hosted by Will Barron brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network. Look, if you work in sales, wanna learn how to sell or just peek at the latest sales news. Check out the sales podcast where host will Barron helps sales professionals learn how to find buyers and in big business in effective and ethical ways. One of my favorite episodes lately, how to personalize your sales outreach at massive scale, who doesn't want to do that? Listen to the salesman podcast, wherever you get your podcast.

John Jantsch (00:46): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Marc Mawhinney. He's a lifelong entrepreneur who helps coaches get more clients without paid advertising. He achieves this with his coaching programs, his podcast, natural born coaches, his Facebook group, the coaching jungle and his exclusive print newsletter secret coach club. So mark, welcome to the show.

Marc Mawhinney (01:15): Well, uh, thanks for having me, John, and I should let people know, uh, what a good guy you are. I messed up our original meeting last week where I didn't up at our time, uh, scheduling snafu. Totally my fault, but you're very gracious and here we are today. So it's embarrassing for me, but thank you for not, uh, blocking me and kicking me outta your

John Jantsch (01:33): World. Now you've done your public penance there. So all all is right. So, so how long let's talk a little bit about your journey. How long have you yourself been a coach and kinda where do you get started your training? Cuz there's, there's certainly a lot of people jumping into the profession and I'd, I'd love to hear kind of maybe how your, your approach or your point of difference.

Marc Mawhinney (01:54): Yeah, so I officially started March, 2014, so we're around eight years now. And at the time I thought I was too late to the party of I was crowded and uh, I waited too long and here we are in 2022 and it's 10 times noisier and way more coaches. So the more of the story, there's never a perfect time. Just jump in there and do it. Now. My background's actually real estate. You know, I spent about a decade building up a large real estate company and throughout my twenties, and then everything collapsed in 2009. Right. And basically I went through a rough period of couple years where after nonstop success, it was just a couple years of struggle and everything. I touched, turned to crap instead of gold. And I was held back to my feet by several coaches. And that's how I found out about coaching. What eventually led me into start my coaching business in 2014,

John Jantsch (02:41): You made a use the word, no, uh, noisy. Mm. And I think that I too have, you know, I work with consultants and have for many years. And when I started my program maybe 10 years ago, I don't know that there were too many people out there now everybody's selling some sort of training for digital agencies. And you know, how do you find that you kind of cut through that

Marc Mawhinney (03:01): Noise? Well, I like yourself. I mean, you've been at it longer than me and there's that consistency, you know, since 2014, I've released 751 episodes as of today for my podcast, you know? And I've gone on a lot of shows like this. I I've been doing daily emails to my list since 26 steam and haven't missed a day there. So it's not always a sexy superpower consistency. Yeah. Cause everyone's looking for, you know, the magic bullet, but it's just showing up every day and then you're gonna outlast those people that we've all seen. They jump into it and the, and they, uh, burn themselves out. You know, they, they don't make the million bucks in the first month they get frustrated and then they're gone. So a lot of it was just me showing up every day. Like, was it Woody Allens it showing up half the battle or something? I don't know. I'm not a big Woody Allen fan, but for his movies. But I think he said that,

John Jantsch (03:49): So let me get this straight. You're saying you work really hard for a long time. That's the secret.

Marc Mawhinney (03:53): Yeah. Go figure. Yeah.

John Jantsch (03:55): Who wants? I like that.

Marc Mawhinney (03:57): I'm an optimistic person, but uh, what to things like business, I'm also realistic. So I say I'm an optimistic realist. Uh, so I'm not the type, uh, you know, when you plant a seed and you, uh, sprinkle some water on it and stuff, you don't expect it to come up outta the ground until the next day, I just assume it'll happen. So yeah. I mean, everything I do is with that in mind that, Hey, I'm just gonna do my best job possible, gonna hang in there. And then the results usually come, but I don't beat myself up if I don't get a bunch of money coming in on day one to trying something. Right.

John Jantsch (04:27): So in the intro, you mentioned that you do marketing, uh, for coaches or teach marketing for coaches without, uh, paid advertising. So I'm guessing somebody listening to this show, I go, okay, how do I, you know, get clients without paid advertising market?

Marc Mawhinney (04:42): Well, we just touched on it. You gotta roll up your sleeves and do some work. Yeah. Uh, so when I got started in 2014 coming off of bad business closure where I lost everything, you know, went belly up. I didn't have the benefit of having a big war chest. Like I had back in my real estate days, cuz I used to do a ton of now we're talking about the stone ages, you know, the early 2000, but I did a lot of postcard mailouts and radio advertising and print advertising and so on and all. And then when I start coaching, I'm like, oh man, I don't have that. I can't be spending tens of thousands of dollars a month on marketing. Uh, at the time I thought of negative looking back now there was a silver lining there cuz it forced me to really hone my message.

Marc Mawhinney (05:20): I had to do it all or, and put that work into it. And so I do find a lot of times people try to shortcut the process of this coaching. Let's say they're coming from corporate America, they got their golden parachute or they're sitting on a bunch of money and they think I'll just hire some, uh, funnel expert or guru and spend 30 or 50 grand and that'll handle it. But yeah, that, that's how coaches can do it is just by rolling up your sleeves. I know it sounds like common sense and just doing it.

John Jantsch (05:48): So, you know, I talk about that as, as well. And I talk about, you know, the various channels and you know, ways that we can reach our clients and inevitably somebody, you know, comes up like I'll, I'll, I'll do a talk to seven steps to, you know, marketing, small business marketing success or something. And at the end I'll always, somebody will come up and say, that's great. There's all these things we gotta do. But like what's the one thing, right? So, so if I'm, if I, if I'm just getting started, say as a coach and I really, you know, I do need to get clients. Is there a channel, is there a place, is there an activity that you would tell people? Well, as you're just getting started, here's, you know, here's something you should at least do to maybe kind of jumpstart.

Marc Mawhinney (06:28): I mean there's more than one way to skin a cat, right? So there's certain ma uh, platforms that I prefer you and I chatted about this. When you came on my show, a good example, you with blogging. I mean, that was a great way that got your name out there, put you on the map and everything for me podcast really have three pillars, podcasting. That's my show. But also going out on shows, I like this. There's a Facebook group, really community building. Uh, so I have the coaching jungle group and then the third ways with daily email marketing. So what I would say is, um, the, your three pillars or a couple things may be different than mine, but find, uh, one or a couple things that you enjoy doing and that you can get results from and then consistently do it instead of trying to spread out and do every single thing that's out there. Cause you don't have the time to do that. So it's like trying to start a fire with a magnifying glass. If you're moving it around, it's not gonna catch on fire. Uh, you gotta keep in one place. Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:19): Great. Uh, point, I remember doing that as a kid all the time, um, laying

Marc Mawhinney (07:23): You with the little army figures, it goes Bart Simpson, one of the episodes of the Simpsons, he was melting the little green army guy.

John Jantsch (07:30): Um, I, I think you kind of answered this already, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna pose it to you directly and you could say, well, yeah, that's what I meant by that. But when you are working with coaches, what do you see that they tip? What, what's the thing they get wrong most often?

Marc Mawhinney (07:43): Well, especially with new coaches, uh, they assume that they're gonna spend, uh, roughly 80% of their time coaching. And then, oh, the other 20% maybe finding clients doing a little bit of backend paperwork and stuff, but the majority of their time will be spent coaching. Yeah. Anyone who spend any time the business and is that it's a flip side of it. And actually it wouldn't even be 20% of your time. Coaching is probably even less, but the, the vast majority of your time spent, uh, doing the things to, to find clients, which some people don't like because they do the coaching, right. That's why they're getting into it. And they, they think, oh gee, I don't wanna be selling it. I don't wanna be posting content marketing or whatever, but that's what you have to do. You're gonna be a, uh, well kept secret. If you're not willing to get out there. I've often said if I had to put my money on one of two coaches, if there's a mediocre coach that has amazing advertiser marketing and, and skills, but then there's this incredible coach best in the world, but sucks at marketing. I'd put my money in the mediocre coach. Unfortunately. Uh, that's just the way the world is.

John Jantsch (08:42): And now let's hear from a sponsor, whether you're looking to sell your business in the near future or just wanna make it more scalable and profitable Work Better Now's virtual assistance can help you get there. Adding a virtual assistant to your team can help you focus on high value activities like business development to boost your bottom line Work Better Now clients say that their virtual executive assistants have made an impact on their business. Well beyond their expectations for only $1,900 a month, you get a full-time assistant who is 100% dedicated to your business. There are no contracts, no additional costs based in Latin America with incredible English, proficiency and business experience work better. Now assistance undergo a rigorous screening and onboarding process work better now is currently offering Duct Tape Marketing readers and listeners $150 off per month for three months, just mentioning duct tape to learn more, visit workbetternow.com.

John Jantsch (09:38): You know, you've been doing this for a while. You've put lots of time and energy into building a bit of a reputation. There's no question that has value, right? I mean, people, uh, see you, they begin to like you and trust you and they're willing to pay a premium perhaps to work with you because of a reputation. How does somebody who doesn't have that go about building, uh, a reputation of influence or in expertise without, you know, without having that kind of long term, uh, success?

Marc Mawhinney (10:09): Well, I mean, I think, uh, one great way to do it's podcasting and you're a fan of podcasting too. I started my show in November of 2014. So I was still within that first year of being in business. The podcast got me in touch with some really, uh, great people. You know, some were big names, uh, some weren't so big names with their interesting people. Well, connected got my foot in the door with others. And then when people went to check, they're like, oh, gee, he's, you know, host a podcast. He's had these people on, like for example, I rich Lipton and Steve Chandler on my show fairly early in the run, they wrote the prosperous coach and they're well known in, in coaching circles. So people say, oh, Jay mark knows rich. And Steve, you know, now we're not best buddies or anything like that, but we talk from time to time with both those guys. And they're great. So I think podcasting, especially where there's little to expense to do it, or it's peanuts, that's probably your best bang for your buck. As long as you're patient with it, you don't expect to make the million dollars in the first week or anything like that.

John Jantsch (11:08): You mentioned the real estate industry and you know, it's most people, I don't know if most people know this or not, but probably about 20% of residential real estate, eight agents make any real money. Uh, the other, you know, run around it's part-time job. They get in it, get out of it. There's some similarity. I think in coaching, you know, it's very easy to get into coaching, you know, call yourself a coach. I think the, the top 20% are probably people that treat it as a real business that are very successful. Now I'm not disparaging the industry. I'm just that, you know, you can go industry by industry and that's probably the case. So, so having said that, what are some of the things practices not necessarily marketing, but what are some of the practices that you see that, that top tier, uh, coach coaching business do?

Marc Mawhinney (11:51): Well, I'm glad you mentioned about the similarities, cuz I've said that often before too, I catch myself, instead of saying coach, I might say agent or something. Yeah. First you think, well, there's not no similarities between the two, but actually there is, I just actually wrote an email the other day about this. And I said, one of the things I noticed that successful, uh, coaches don't do versus unsuccessful is complain. You know? And what I mean by that, I, everybody complains, you know, human or whatever, but they, they, they're not spending their time griping about, well, well, here's an example which I noticed in real estate, and this is why I love coaching in real estate. I was in a, a small, I say small market in Atlantic. Canada's 300 agents in my marketplace and everybody talked crap about everyone because they would, if I got a listing or John gets a listing, then O GE John took food off my, uh, table.

Marc Mawhinney (12:38): Right. He got that commission. I just talked to that homeowner two weeks ago. I should add it. Yeah. You know, or stuff like that. So in real estate, uh, the agents are all 364 days of the year, stabbing each other in the back. And then at the Christmas party for the real estate board, they're hugging it at each other, like their best friends. Then it's back to normal with the coaching world. What I like about it is it's not like that because, uh, it you're in, uh, Colorado. Right? I am, I am. So if, if you're in Colorado, you get a client I'm not grumbling up. You're like, oh geez, John, that bugger, he got that, you know, whatever, it's billions dollars a year industry. And it's just not saying everybody loves each other all the time. There's of course feuding and things, but, but yeah, I've find the successful coaches. They're not looking at the complaining or, or bringing other people down. And I see some coaches on social media, especially that some of the stuff they're posting, uh, about is, uh, it's kind of depressing. I'm like, I don't think I'd want to work with that person. They're just complaining that much. So there, there would be one thing that would differentiate to,

John Jantsch (13:34): So

John Jantsch (13:36): Coaching is one of those businesses, like a lot of professional services where a high level of trust really needs to be established with clients. So I'm guessing Nile, I know this, that referrals are a really big part of, you know, how a lot of coaches probably acquire new business. So what do you see success coaches doing to actually stimulate that? Obviously doing good work, being trustworthy. You know, those are things that are gonna make referrals happen, but I see a lot of businesses that get a lot of referrals, but they don't do anything to try to actually stimulate them. In fact, I, I, I sure one statistic and then I'll show up that, that their firstly, a Texas tech, the university did a study in, they found they interviewed 2000 consumers and, and 86 or so percent of them said there was a business they loved so much, they would refer. And then the flip side of that was only 27% of them actually did. And so, you know, I often say there's gotta be some real money in that gap. You know, it's not enough to just have happy customers. You've gotta do something to stimulate that, that referability I think,

Marc Mawhinney (14:38): Yeah. I mean, one thing, it sounds kind of funny to say it, uh, you have to ask for referrals, which I don't think that's being done nearly enough. I'm probably guilty of that too. Yeah. You know, full disclosure. One of the things I do in this might sound a little, uh, craft, but I, I think it does help if somebody refers business to me, whether it be a client or good joint venture partner or something, I sounds bad. I'll pay them. Yeah. I'll pay for the referral. Yeah. I know some people say, well, you shouldn't do that cuz it, you know, or whatever, it's my way saying, Hey, um, I appreciate you keeping me in mind. And I would pay all day long if someone's handing me a good client on a silver platter. I given referrals to people. It's not that I'm doing it just for, you know, money or monetary gain, but sometimes I'm not even getting thanks, uh, from people, uh, before, which is, I'm like, wow, that's kind of silly if somebody's referring you business and a really good client, one person I know, you know, not to, not to complain cuz I just talked to complaining, but uh, I gave them a five figure client, a really good client or whatever.

Marc Mawhinney (15:33): And I got a little, uh, nut basket or something in the mail, you know, like a $20 basket, which is fine. Like, you know, I'm not a big nut fan or whatever, but yeah, if somebody's given me a client worth 10,000, $50,000, I'm gonna give them a nice gift.

John Jantsch (15:49): So let's go back to, uh, delivery on coaching. So, you know, a lot of coaches, a lot of consultants, a lot of businesses in general, understand the value of having kind of this maybe starter offer and then a core offer and then, you know, group offers and, you know, big, you know, scale program. Do you, you know, is there a delivery mechanism that is, um, you know, is probably the best for coaching now or should every coaching practice have a variety of maybe price points even as well as, uh, delivery mechanisms?

Marc Mawhinney (16:21): Uh, well it's tough because there's different ways to do it. Yeah. You know, uh, some people or a lot of people like the latter approach, uh, where you start with the low price or low ticket thing and then work your way up. I know some coaches at that don't want to get into that. They swear by the no, you start with the big ticket thing. And that's what you're focusing on. The one thing I will say with mine is with my ladder. So to speak, my offers go anywhere from a, a base. I have a print newsletter that's $97 a month, 9 97 a year. That's my, uh, most affordable offering. That's how people can get into my, they they're allowed to pick my brain by email subscribers there. Then it goes all the way up 10,000 to not, but I don't play in the world where, um, a lot of people are like, Hey, let's have a $7 e-book to get people in there and stuff.

Marc Mawhinney (17:05): And I, I just prefer to, uh, have that as a base $97 a month. And if you're not able to do that or not willing to, then that's fine, but you gotta pay to play or have some skin in the game, uh, that way too. So you could do it any number of ways. My suggestion though is not to have too many. So a true story. I had a client, uh, years ago, this was probably five or six years ago. And when we started working together before our first call, I'd want to get as much information as possible, get a feel for his business. And he said, oh, I I'll send over a spreadsheet with my offers to show you what I'm doing. And oh my God, there's like 36 different offers of different, uh, lengths of time frequency for sessions. And I said, how do you keep track of this? Like, you know, he was even confused with it. So you shouldn't need a spreadsheet to track your offers, keep it, you know, keep it simple. Nice and

John Jantsch (17:54): Easy. Plus how do, how do you ever explain all those offers to somebody, as you said, without them coming, just going, I don't know what to depend.

Marc Mawhinney (17:59): They're caught like a, the cot headlights. There's been different studies too showing, uh, one that comes to mind, uh, Joe showman. But yeah, he was doing some work with the Swiss army people. They had a Swiss army with that they're selling and he went in to meet with them. And I guess there were three different types of that Watchers. Uh men's women's and the children's models. And there were three different colors for each. I think it was camouflage black and a different color. And uh, he, they wanted him to have all nine of those models, three times three on the full page ad we, which he did not want do, but they said, no, you know, no, we want do it. He want to run with just the men's black model with it and he couldn't talk them out of it. So he agreed, okay, we'll do a AB split test. We'll put my ad simple one choice versus your ad and see which one does better. And um, pretty sure that his simple one watch ad pulled like four times better or something like that. Yeah. And, uh, so a lot of people think, oh, well there's more selection. You'll get more sales. It's actually the other way, it's more selection confuses the buyer and then they end up not opening their

John Jantsch (18:58): Wallets. Yeah. You certainly see a lot of good, better, best, you know, where people's like, you know, and it's really almost more way of helping somebody make a decision cuz it, you know, always the middle choice says most popular, you know, kinda psychologically sells them the one thing, but also says, oh, it's not the most expensive, you know? So it's, there's a lot of psych psychology and pricing isn't there. So, so let's close up on, are there any trends that you see in coaching right now or trends in delivery models or trends you knows like membership programs where big, you know, for a while, I mean, are there any things that you see coming, uh, in the future that you think people ought be paying attention to?

Marc Mawhinney (19:36): Well, I think a trend that we're and I already saw this the last few years, but I think it's gonna be even more pronounced going forward is coaches are gonna have to deliver on what they're promising. So, you know, gone are the days when you could, you know, put up a fancy sales page or what make all these big promises but not deliver and then still expect to stay in business. I, I think the customer clients are becoming more sophisticated, maybe more jaded too. Yeah. They've been Burt by one or two of these bad apples. Uh, so you're gonna have to do better there and that's good for people like us at weeds at the bad actors and keep doing, you know, the good people will profit. So that's what, what I would see that coaches are gonna have to, you're not gonna have to, uh, not just give the sizzle, but the steak as well, I guess. Yeah.

John Jantsch (20:18): All right. Mark, tell people where they can find out more about your natural born coaches program, the coaching jungle, all the things wherever you wanna send people. Yeah.

Marc Mawhinney (20:24): Well the central hub has the podcast, the access to my daily emails, all that that's at natural born coaches.com and uh, you are a guests on my show. So hopefully your show will be up by time. They go over and check it out. But natural born coaches.com the Facebook group, like you mentioned, the coaching jungle, there's 22,000 coaches in there. Lots of great discussion. That's at dot coaching jungle.com.

John Jantsch (20:45): Awesome. Well, mark, it was great. Uh, having you come by the duct tape marketing podcast and hopefully we'll, uh, run into you, uh, one of these days when I'm up in, uh, Canada again.

Marc Mawhinney (20:54): Yeah, come on over and double go skiing or something. Wintery sounds Awesome.

John Jantsch (20:59): All right. That wraps up another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. I wanna thank you so much for tuning in. Feel free to share the show, feel free to give us reviews. You know, we love those things. Also. Did you know that we had created training, marketing training for your team? If you've got employees, if you've got a staff member that wants to learn a marketing system, how to install that marketing system in your business, check it out. It's called the certified marketing manager program from duct tape. You can find it at ducttapemarketing.com and just scroll down a little and find that tab that says training for your team.

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network and WorkBetterNow.

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How To Truly Embrace Change And Build Long-Term Resilience

Marketing Podcast with Adam Markel

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview Adam Markel. Adam is a best-selling author, keynote speaker, and resilience researcher. He inspires leaders to master the challenges of massive disruption in his upcoming book, Change Proof: Leveraging the Power of Uncertainty to Build Long-Term Resilience.

Key Takeaway:

When we think of resilience, we think of being able to “roll with the punches” and “bounce back” after uncertainty or change. But resiliency expert and bestselling author Adam Markel encourages you to aim higher. This kind of resilience—thriving versus surviving—is a skill you can cultivate, both personally and professionally. In this episode, we discuss how to truly, actually embrace change—to find the creative opportunity in uncertainty, as opposed to simply riding it out or reacting to it.

Questions I ask Adam Markel:

  • [1:33] How would you define resilience?
  • [2:36] Is resilience often confused with perseverance?
  • [5:40] What does “Change Proof” mean in the title of your upcoming book?
  • [8:23] Are you suggesting that stress needs to be a part of our daily practice in some way?
  • [13:39] How do you embrace hope when you’ve been mentally drained from the last couple of years?
  • [19:42] You talk a lot about how you can’t think big without having your basic needs met and one of the tools you talk about is gratitude for helping people – would you dive into more of what you mean by that?
  • [24:16] Where can more people find out about your work and pick up a copy of your book?

More About Adam Markel:

More About The Certified Marketing Manager Program Powered By Duct Tape Marketing:

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the duct tape marketing podcast is brought to you by the salesman podcast, hosted by will Barron brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network. Look, if you work in sales, wanna learn how to sell or just peek at the latest sales news. Check out the sales podcast where host will Barron helps sales professionals learn how to find buyers and in big business in effective and ethical ways. One of my favorite episodes lately, how to personalize your sales outreach at massive scale, who doesn't want to do that? Listen to the salesman podcast, wherever you get your podcast.

John Jantsch (00:44): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Adam markel. He's the best selling author, keynote speaker and resilience researcher who inspires leaders to master the challenges of massive disruption. We're gonna talk about his upcoming book change proof, leveraging the power of uncertainty to build long term resilience. So Adam, welcome to the show. Hey

Adam Markel (01:12): John, it's great to be here with you today.

John Jantsch (01:13): So do you think resilience is having like a moment? I mean, it's obviously for anyone in business for anyone going through life, it's an important skill, but do you feel like all of, of sudden there's a focus on it?

Adam Markel (01:24): Oh, I mean, I, I don't know how there, there couldn't be at this moment. People are having a moment every moment every

John Jantsch (01:32): Day. Yeah. Yeah. So, so how would you define resilience? I guess let's I always, when, particularly when that's a part of the title, I always like to get a take on it. Well, I think

Adam Markel (01:41): It's important to, to say what it's not to start with. It's not what people think it is. And so often it is people define resilience as the ability to get back up from a knock down from a, a setback or something. And often it's this kind of coming back to normal or bouncing back concept and all of my research and case studies and things that we write out in the book and, and all my years of experience, just in business as a CEO, as a dad, as a husband and, you know, a lawyer and all the things I've done in my life have proven it to be something quite different. So our research says that resilience is about how we recover, not about how we endure it's about how we bounce forward, not about how we bounce back. So again, when we think about defining resilience, it's really this capacity to leverage uncertainty and even adversity as a catalyst for long term growth. That's how we define

John Jantsch (02:36): Resilience. Yeah. It's, it's often confused with perseverance, I guess, right?

Adam Markel (02:41): Yeah. I mean, I think that's true. There's, you know, there's an element of grit experience, tenacity kind of baked into the cake.

John Jantsch (02:48): Well, so, you know, I think any entrepreneur, you know, particularly that, that has lasted for any amount of time, I think has this knack of resilience, right. It's okay. We got knocked down. I learned something from it and now that's what I'm gonna take to the next chapter. And I, I think it's something that seems to be coming more to corporate careers where I think it's always been embedded in, in somebody who's kind of done their own thing for any amount of time.

Adam Markel (03:13): For sure. The learning edge, the growth edge is so prevalent. That is endemic in what resilience looks like. I think people sometimes think that some folks are more resilient or even born more resilient than others. And again, our research is really clear that resilience is something that we can learn at any age. It is trainable. Yeah. We can be trained to be more resilient. So,

John Jantsch (03:36): So probably those people we're talking about being, you know, more resilient, you know, they just were taught at maybe at a younger age, for example, because they, they saw it modeled in, in their parents even.

Adam Markel (03:47): Yeah. I mean, that's where leadership comes in, right? Yeah. Because your Le, you know, the first ex example of leadership in your life would be your parents, for sure. And or any of your guardians or the people who are in influential on you. And then obviously later on it's, it might be your first boss at work. And later on beyond that, it's the person that, you know, is mentoring you in your career or the, the way that you're mentoring others, but you really have to model resilience for others. That's yeah. Where resilience becomes contagious. And that's actually, when we get a greater organizational benefit out of it is the exponential benefit is in when we're, when leaders are modeling it. And then others are able to see that model as something that they aspire to. So there's actually permission granted for being resilient and doing the things that lead to greater mental, emotional, physical, and even spiritual resilience.

John Jantsch (04:38): Yeah. Cuz I, I, I, I suspect there are, so of organizations that have that, no, that's not your job. Put your head down, you know, do your work, you know, you don't need to come up with the new learning from this. And so that's obviously something that gets squashed, right?

Adam Markel (04:51): Yeah. I mean, I think there's no doubt. There's not always permission. That's granted. Yeah. I, I, I speak to organizations globally. So everything from, you know, a startup to a fortune 50 a company and both in the private and the public sector and, and, and even to the military, I I've recently delivered some workshops for the, the Marine Corps and in military terms, you know, there's not a lot of permission for vulnerability. Yeah. You know, like the culture is about having each other's backs, but there's a simultaneous culture of side. And that's where we, we see there's so many mental health challenges with veterans and with service members who are, who are still, you know, in active duty.

John Jantsch (05:30): So, so let's, uh, tackle another idea that comes from the title itself change is something that a lot of people struggle with. Uh, obviously, I mean, I'm guessing that's a hint of the word, you know, proof, but I mean, being change proof, I guess helped me understand that a little bit because I, I find just a touch of confusion and maybe that's what you wanted, uh, from that term to kind of make it like you don't change or you won't change. And obviously, I, I know you're saying change is growth.

Adam Markel (06:00): Yeah. No, I'm so glad. That's such a great question, John. It it's like if you would think of what waterproof looks like, what does waterproof mean? It, it means that you are resilient to water that, that somehow, or another water doesn't penetrate what doesn't damage the shoes or the boots, or, you know, the jacket or whatever it might be, or the watch or something. So when you're change proof, you're sort of agnostic to change in the sense that any change can happen at any time. Yeah. The only question that's a variable is how do you respond to that change? So many people, I think, live their lives unconsciously or without, yeah. I'll say unconsciously thinking that things will stay the same. That's what we actually intend that somehow or another, the status quo is the thing that we're after. Even though we'll complain about our situation, you know, that my job, isn't what I want it to be. I'm not earning enough money or, you know, my team isn't performing or whatever the things are that we wanna make better. But often the, the, the idea of changing something brings greater fear than the fear of, or the issue with leaving things as they are the status quo. In other words. So it's the devil, you know, versus the

John Jantsch (07:08): Dead. I was, you took the words outta my mouth. That's, what's exactly what I was going to say. And it greats a great amount of stress. And there, there is one dunno if there's a quote directly from the book or, or something I just picked up, but researchers have found that our negative perception of stress is more dangerous to our health and happiness than the stress itself.

Adam Markel (07:26): Oh yeah. I mean, there's no question stress is the stresses and kill us. It's the, it's our, our impressions about stress. Our opinions are feelings about stress. That's what makes us, that's what really makes us sick. Often. If we see stress as something that we can utilize, leverage that we can reframe, even that we can, uh, address before it becomes chronic, then stress is actually the kind of thing that, that helps us to get larger muscles in the gym. It helps us to grow in our personal lives and our relationships. And in so many areas, the stress is the catalyst for our

John Jantsch (08:04): Growth. Yeah. There was a book years ago called stress for success. And I think that was, I don't know if you're familiar with it, but, uh, that, I think that was the basis of that argument was that it's something that you maybe ought of not seek out in a negative way, but be very open to practice for, you know, just as you said, kind of build that muscle. So, I mean, in some ways, are you suggesting that this is actually needs to be a part of our, our daily practice in some

Adam Markel (08:29): Ways? Absolutely. Yeah. The idea that somehow we can make ourselves resistant to stress that, that we can avoid it. We can hide from it. I mean, that's just not, it's not real. I spent 18 years as a lawyer before I, I started authoring books and speaking to organizations and doing trainings and things, and there's just, no, you know, that's, and I'm a very practical, you know, I'm just practical by nature. So you can't avoid stress. It's the question is what do you do with it? And to me, the, the truism, and, and again, based on research and based on experiences, well, personal experiences that it's far easier to recover from stress in the first place, or I should say it's far easier to prevent stress or prevent fatigue or prevent exhaustion in the first place than it is to recover from it later, people ignore it, or they, again, sort of try to live in a way that, that, that avoids it.

Adam Markel (09:22): And because of that, when it hits, when the stress hits, when the disruption hits, when the change shows up, they're then kind of knocked down in a way that they wouldn't be, if they had been for it all along and the time to be working on your resilience is now before you'll need it next. Because as I often will say to audiences, you know, as I know my own name is Adam, and I know you guys can't see me now, but I don't have any hair in my head. So I'm bald, you know, handsomely, bald, I have a good head for that, but, um, this is not the last time we're gonna be called upon to be resilient. And this might not even be the greatest disruption. It's been a good one. I mean, when it comes to disruptions, you know, two, two plus year pandemic, the world's shutting down. And every other thing that that's existed, you know, in the middle of this has been a challenge for sure, but I don't even think this is the greatest challenge that most of us will face in our lives.

John Jantsch (10:16): Yeah. And I, it's funny because I, again, I don't have the camera on either, but you might see that I have actually a little gray in my hair and I think you, you go through some of these, you're like, yeah, the world actually didn't end, you know, and I think you really do build up some of that ability to be more, uh, resilient. I think because you see on the back can sometimes actually something much greater comes out of, of some of the things that we see, you know, as, as change.

Adam Markel (10:45): Well, I mean, this is something we cover in the book we have to learn from the future. Yeah. And, and the future is a great teacher to us. And I, it's kinda kind of sounds tongue and cheek, you know, how do you, like it's becoming future proof, right? Because the future proof or the future will teach us in the present that the present provides the greatest opportunity for our growth. It always does. It always will. And so that's a lot more concrete for me than just the idea that everything happens for a reason, or it'll all work out or, you know, it'll be fine in the end. And, uh, you know, alls, well, that ends, even though of course, Shakespeare, it's hard to improve upon Shakespeare. So yes, alls, well, that ends well. And there's a, you know, parentheses, it ends, well, that's the story.

Adam Markel (11:28): You wouldn't be here. And I wouldn't be here. And the people who are listening to this right now, wouldn't be here if it didn't end well. And by that, I mean, the thing that caused them that shook them, you know, shook their core rock. Them, dropped them to their knees five years ago, 10 years ago, or five minutes ago when they, you know, got worried, got nervous, got anxious, got angry, got upset, um, with something that, that represents a threat to their safety in, in the present moment. So I think this book in many ways really addresses the root causes of what depletes us and how we are depleted. Typically in four, four areas, we're either, you know, sort of mentally, emotionally, physically, or even spiritually depleted. And when we work on up the tank, if you will on recharging and re regenerating ourselves in those four specific zones, then collectively and holistically, we are more resilient to any form of change.

John Jantsch (12:25): And now let's hear from a sponsor, whether you're looking to sell your business in the near future, or just wanna make it more scalable and profitable Work Better Now, as virtual assistant can help you get there. Adding a virtual assistant to your team can help you focus on high value activities like business development to boost your bottom line work better. Now, clients say that their virtual executive assistants have made an impact on their business. Well beyond their expectations for only $1,900 a month, you get a full-time assistant who is 100 dedicated to your business. There are no contracts, no additional cost based in Latin America with incredible English, proficiency and business experience work better. Now, assistance undergo a rigorous screening and onboarding process work better. Now is currently offering duct tape marketing readers and listeners $150 off per month for three months, just mentioning duct tape to learn more, visit workbetternow.com.

John Jantsch (13:21): I know a lot of people, um, right now that are actually pretty charged up because I think, and I think you're suggesting this is that you sometimes see changes opportunity rather than, oh, you know, it's not gonna be like it all always was. And I, I think there are a lot of people right now that feel like this is gonna be one of we're gonna come out of one into one of the most fantastic periods of growth and opportunity that probably ever existed in many people's lifetimes. But how do you being worn down, you know, run down kind of mentally drained from the last couple, you know, how do you embrace that kind of, of hope

Adam Markel (14:00): Or, or even have the energy to seize the opportunities that are there, John? Yeah. Uh, you know, you've asked a really poignant question because yeah, people who are exhausted or are depleted are incapable of thinking big, it's not a personal, you know, for anybody is listening to this and says, yeah, I'm just, I really am. I'm just so I'm tired of it. I'm frustrated with it. I'm exhausted from it. I can't find myself, you know, I don't find myself getting enthusiastic or really geared up for what's to come well, that's, that's the bigger challenge. I mean, the fact is that, and, and it's also the good news because to recognize you feel that way to recognize your own exhaustion levels means that you have at your, at your, at your disposal a way to, to turn that around. And I mean, everybody can do that.

Adam Markel (14:49): It is. So again, easy to prevent the exhaustion from becoming debilitating or prevent the exhaustion from turning into burnout in the first place than to try to recover from it after it's happened. So in our book, what we talk about are rituals, crafting and creating rituals for resilience in those four specific areas and too many rituals to kind of count, but rituals for, you know, my, my life, I think my life is really built on rituals. And I think that our lives are the equivalent of the quality of our, of the rituals or the things that we ritualize. And by that, I mean, the things that we do consciously a habit is something you might do consciously, but you might do it unconsciously. Great example is picking up your toothbrush again. And we talk about this in the book, we call it the toothbrush, you know, just try to for the next week, hold the toothbrush.

Adam Markel (15:38): In the other hand, brush your teeth with the opposite hand, see what a creature of habit you really are. But more often than not, you pick it up. You don't even think about it. So that's a habit that's done unconsciously. You don't think for most of the time that you're in the car driving, you just don't about it. But a ritual is something you, you are consciously creating and doing for a purpose and it will eventually become a habit. But at the beginning, it it's something that you ritualize in order to habitualize. And so what do you ritualize? Well, you ritualize how it is that you can give your mind some break time, some downtime, some reset time. How is it that you regulate your emotions and where is it that you can actually regenerate emotional strength? And what do you do to do that?

Adam Markel (16:20): It's a separate set of rituals for that physically. I mean, we all kind of get that piece. It's a lot more than just getting eight hours of sleep. Eight hours of sleep is a good start. If you're actually resting when you sleep. And a lot of people aren't, it's the water you drink, it's the food. It's how quickly you eat or don't eat. It's the energy that you exert exert in certain areas and, and where you, where you, don't, how you move your body. It's so many things. And then on the spiritual side, which is not religious, but really our sense of connection, what we find in, in the studies that we've done. And, and we've now gotten the data from more than 3000 leaders from across the globe with this simple assessment tool that we call the resilience rank. So resilience, rank.com is a, a site where a free assessment can be had by people takes three minutes.

Adam Markel (17:08): It's 16 questions. It's super simple, not like a lot of these assessments that take forever to, to fill out, but people go to resilience, rank.com. They spend the three minutes answering the 16 questions. They get a report with a score in each of these four areas. And on the side of the spiritual, we find the most amazing thing across organizations all over the globe that people often feel like they're engaged in a livelihood that is alignment with their core values and beliefs. Now that's question 13. And then question 14. The very next question is that. So, so people are green in that area. People are engaged in things that they feel good about, but then the next question is there are significant gaps between what they say is important to them and how they're actually allocating and spending their time. And that's routinely in the red zone.

Adam Markel (17:58): People are often like 85% of the time, not spending their time, not allocating their time in alignment with the things that are most important to them. And you know, when you have a connection like that, again, it can make you feel weak on the inside. It can deplete you of your hope of the things that that would otherwise help you to be more resilient in the face of uncertainty and adversity, even. So, you know, to know that is brilliant. I mean, it's, it's li it's game changing to know that because when you know that, well, then you can do something about it. And the things you can do about it are not big changes. When, and I, I wrote a book previously called pivot, which is a book about small changes, a book about how it is that we reinvent ourselves through our careers, through a series of small changes.

Adam Markel (18:42): And so even when it comes to your alignment, the, the kind of changes you can make to feel more aligned and more congruent are not things like quit your job, that you don't have to jump ship in order to make these kind of changes. And, and that's really important, John, because when people think that they have to do something drastic to fix something, then they have the fear of the drastic change on top of everything else they're dealing with. Yeah. And it usually just leads to sort of a pro paralysis and a depression, even because they feel helpless and, you know, that just feels hopeless, honestly.

John Jantsch (19:18): Yeah. You, I think you nailed that, that idea of that. And that's in a really important, I, um, idea, I think for a lot of people, that idea of this, um, unconscious incongruence that, you know, people, you know, your 5% of the people realize exists when they examine it, but don't realize it exists and causes so much stress when they don't examine it, I think is a really powerful idea. So one of the things you talked about was to me, when you were talking about, you've gotta get these, you've gotta get these base things nailed. I mean, I I'm, I'm hearing, you know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs. You can't think big, you know, without having the, the basic needs met. One of the things that struck me and I was really pleased to see is that, you know, one of the tools that, that you talk about is gratitude. The four actually helping people, cuz you know, a lot of people went through the changes we went through and said, oh, this is terrible. It's not what it used to be. I've gotta change these things. I think if you were true, many of us were being very true to ourselves. We turn around and go, but I don't really have it that bad actually. And I think that's a tool that probably helped, has helped a lot of people the last couple years.

Adam Markel (20:26): Yeah. I mean, I'll just myself as an example, I was recently on a vacation, a beautiful vacation in, in Mexico with my wife. You know, we had done a speaking gig the day before we left to go to Mexico. And then I had a speaking gig. There was virtual actually while I was there, there was supposed to be in person. It got changed. So I got to stay another couple of days in Mexico, which is wonderful. And on the very last day, as we're getting ready to head home, I was in the water. I'm kind of a Waterman. I love being in the ocean. I was a lifeguard. I tell a lot of lifeguard stories and I went in the ocean and in the shore break, got taken up to the top to the crest of a wave. And then the wave broke was kind of a big wave and slammed me down into either the, the, the sand or a Boulder that was buried beneath, you know, was under the water line and uh, and slammed my knee.

Adam Markel (21:15): And I just found out from an MRI that I've got like a double fracture in my knee go, okay. Now on the one hand I was in a beautiful place. I was enjoying a vacation. And then you, 10 minutes later, I'm flying back to the United States and getting seen by a doctor, finding out I have a double fracture and I gotta be off kind of like inactive the way I'm normally active. My activity's gonna change for the next six to eight weeks. He go, well, what do you do with that? You know, and it's a classic example of the things that happen all the time unexpectedly. And the question is, what do you make of that? What do I make of that? And I'm grateful. And, and that's the thing, John, that I, you know, it's not just, it's not just words I gave a Ted talk some years ago.

Adam Markel (22:00): And, and the premise of the Ted talk was this concept of loving your life. And I told my story of having been a really miserable attorney and having an anxiety attack one day that I thought was a heart attack. So I ended up in the emergency room and all this and that. And I said, and I came out of this whole experience, feeling gratitude for my life and to the point where now, when I wake up in the morning, I put my feet on the floor instead of feeling that anxiousness and that dread, even that I used to feel, I, I feel love. I feel love for my life. If I say out loud, those four words, I love my life. And, and so people took exception of that. Some people loved it, they thought it was great. And some other people said, you know, if you only were living my life or lived where I live, you could never say that.

Adam Markel (22:42): Like, that's a really audacious thing to say. And the concept here is one of loving your life, no matter what, and being so now to the point where we're talking about this in connection with resilience and how gratitude practices are so powerful, it's being grateful no matter what, that doesn't mean that I don't wish it did. You know that I wish it didn't happen. I would be happy if it hadn't happened. I didn't need it to happen. I don't need to be in a cast or whatever it is, but it did happen and I'm grateful for it. And I'm, I'm not just grateful for whatever learning I'm gonna gain out of it. And I've already gained so much learning. I mean, my level of, of understanding of what it means to be wheeled around in an airport, in a wheelchair. I had no frame of reference for that.

Adam Markel (23:26): I've been walking around on crutches for several days now. I, I, my level of compassion and empathy for people that are routinely dealing with things like this has changed entirely. But I also know in addition to the growth of, for me as a person, I also know that it could have been my, I could have broken my neck. I could have broken my back. I could be paralyzed. There could be so many other things that could have happened. So the fact of the matter is that as to the event itself, the only way I see it is through a lens of gratitude. And I also know, you know, tongue and cheek to say it this way. I know that where my resilience comes from it will, I will be far greater, are more likely to be resilient over the next few weeks and months, coming from a place of gratitude than coming from another place that we don't even need to discuss.

John Jantsch (24:13): Yeah. Adam tell people where they can find out more about your work and pick up copy of change proof. And then we will definitely have resilience, rank.com in the show notes as well.

Adam Markel (24:25): I'll love it, John. So they can simply go to change proof.com and, uh, get the book there. If they're interested in finding out more about it, there's some really beautiful bonuses. Like I did an audio recording of a walk with me when I was wa when I was walking. So that's actually really valuable now, but the idea that, um, we walking is so important and I love to listen to things when I walk. So it's a little bit different than an audible, cuz I actually am walking with them as it's happening. And there's a few other really cool bonuses too, for organizations as well as individuals. So change proof.com is the place to be. And of course, Adam markel.com for folks that are, are wanting to maybe see video of me, you know, doing my thing as a speaker and, and, and all that is there for our folks as well. John, it's just been a pleasure to be on your show.

John Jantsch (25:09): Oh, well, I really appreciate stopping by the duct tape marketing podcast. And hopefully we'll be able to run into each other one of these days out there on the road, Adam.

Adam Markel (25:16): Oh, let's do that.

John Jantsch (25:18): All right. That wraps up another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. I wanna thank you so much for tuning in, feel free to share this show. Feel free to give us review. As you know, we love those things. Also, did you know that we had created training, marketing training for your team? If you've got employees, if you've got a staff member that wants to learn a marketing system, how to install that marketing system in your business, check it out. It's called the certified marketing manager program from duct tape marketing. You could find it @ ductapemarketing.com and just scroll down a little and find that tab that says training for your team.

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network and WorkBetterNow.

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How To Create A Brand Name For Your Company

Marketing Podcast with Rob Meyerson

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview Rob Meyerson. Rob is a namer, brand consultant, and principal and founder of Heirloom, an independent brand strategy, and identity firm. He also has a new book: Brand Naming: The Complete Guide to Creating a Name for Your Company, Product, or Service.

Key Takeaway:

A name is one of the first, longest-lasting, and most important decisions in defining the identity of your company, your product, or your service. Rob Meyerson is a professional namer and brand consultant. In this episode, Rob is sharing what makes a good (and bad) name, his process for identifying a name, and his best-practice methodologies.

Questions I ask Rob Meyerson:

  • [1:13] Was there a special process for coming up with your company name – Heirloom?
  • [3:52] You’ve worked with a lot of pretty big names in your career – would you say that this idea is equally as important for a small business as it might be for a division of a Fortune 500 company?
  • [5:20] Are there attributes from a general perspective that your brand name should have?
  • [6:55] How important do you feel it is for a name to evoke some sort of emotion?
  • [7:50] How do you measure if a brand re-name or re-focus is successful?
  • [9:41] Do you have any kind of favorite brand success stories?
  • [14:42] Is the risk versus reward worth it with made-up names or is it simpler to define what you do in your name?
  • [17:21] How does your brand naming process work?
  • [20:15] Given the fact that you mentioned that time will tell whether or not you chose a good name – is there a gut-wrenching moment where you all decide to move forward with a brand name?
  • [21:20] How important is it that the dot com name is available?
  • [22:46] Where can people find out more about your work and get a copy of your book?

More About Rob Meyerson:

More About The Certified Marketing Manager Program Powered By Duct Tape Marketing:

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the duct tape marketing podcast is brought to you by the Salesman Podcast, hosted by Will Barron brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network. Look, if you work in sales, wanna learn how to sell or just peek at the latest sales news. Check out the sales podcast where host will Barron helps sales professionals learn how to find buyers and win big business in effective and ethical ways. One of my favorite episodes lately, how to personalize your sales outreach at massive scale, who doesn't want to do that? Listen to the Salesman Podcast, wherever you get your podcast.

John Jantsch (00:47): Hello, welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Rob Meyerson. He's a name brand consultant and principal and founder of heirloom an independent brand strategy and identity firm. He's also the author of brand naming the complete guide to creating a name for your company, product or service. So welcome to show

Rob Meyerson (01:10): Rob. Thanks so much happy to

John Jantsch (01:12): Be here. Okay. So when you're in the naming business, you put a target on your back for the name of your company. So I wonder if you'd, uh, kind of go through, was there, was there a special process for coming up with heirloom?

Rob Meyerson (01:26): Yeah, of course. I went through, um, my recommended naming process and took a little bit of my own medicine. And I'll tell you, it was a really good learning experience because after doing that, I felt like I was that much more in touch with what my clients feel, the, the pain that they feel, frankly, in making that decision. So I, I knew early on, I didn't want to just call it Myerson consulting or Rob Myerson branding. That is something that makes sense for a lot of people yeah. That go out on their own. But I, I liked the, the sort of sense of scale that a brand name could imply. And, and I had aspirations at the time at least of kind of growing into that. Yeah. Um, and I also just felt like as a namer, I should probably go through the process. So yeah.

Rob Meyerson (02:07): I developed hundreds of ideas. I put them through legal pre-screening hundreds of them were not available. there were a ton of agencies out there and almost every word or phrase, right. Or combination of words that you can imagine is some agency somewhere and so wanting to do it. Right. I, I, I killed a lot of great ideas, but I really liked heirloom because, uh, it, it speaks to how I think of brands, you know, an heirloom is something that has value for, for intangible reasons, right? It's your father's watch or something like that. So even though the watch might only be worth a hundred bucks, it's priceless to you because of the story behind it. And I think that it's a nice analogy for, for brands. It, it sort of adds intangible value to a product or a company.

John Jantsch (02:50): So the original name of my company I started 30 years ago was to your point, Jan communications, you know, very, uh, sexy sounding people thought I sold, uh, phones or long distance service or, and so in 2002 back when you could actually still get URLs, I came up with duct tape marketing, and I will tell you that the brand name has served me extremely well. I gave it about 10 minutes of thought. So I'm not going to be very good subject for you. I, I say that, but kiddingly, but I , it just struck me as the perfect metaphor for the clients I was serving and I'd served them for 10 years. So in a lot of ways, I'd probably been thinking about that idea, you know, for 10 years, which is probably, probably not giving myself credit for .

Rob Meyerson (03:31): Well, no, I mean, so many of the best creative ideas, not just names come from that sort of in the back of your mind population. That's a lot in the book when I talk about how to, how to do this, how to have creative ideas, how to do that generation phase. So much of it is about how to stop focusing on this specific challenge and let it pop into your mind while you're doing something

John Jantsch (03:52): Else. So you have in your career, worked with some pretty big names and certainly in consulting have worked with some pretty big names. What would you say that? So, so, so I, most of my listeners, many of my listeners are small business owners. Would you say that this idea is equally as important for a small business as it might be for, you know, a division of a fortune 500 company?

Rob Meyerson (04:13): Yes, I think so. The name is really your, your first and I think best opportunity to, to harness the power of language, which if you think about it for a few minutes is quite powerful. It impacts us in our person lives on a daily basis. It impacts our perceptions judge books by their covers, so to speak. And so, uh, if you want people to have certain impressions of your business or your product from the very get code, the first time they hear about it, then you should put a lot of thought into the name. There are aspects of the process that are more applicable to those big fortune 500 or big, you know, whether it's B2B or B2C. I think there are things that maybe are weighted a little bit differently, but the overall importance and process is very

John Jantsch (04:54): Similar. Yeah. They may have a family of brands or they may have some, you know, some standards that they need to kind of adhere to. So yeah, the obviously, but it is amazing how often I will run across companies and they they've just kind of picked it maybe because they saw other people doing it or using it in their industry. And, and when you really start trying to do some positioning around their marketing and things, it's like, people don't even know what you do, you know, based on the name. So let me ask you that. I mean, are there attributes that, that while every case is unique, are there attributes that you say, well, generally speaking, it should have, you know, this or, or should feel like this.

Rob Meyerson (05:32): Yes. Uh, although I really like the way you phrased the question, because I think one of the, the big mistakes people make, uh, is thinking that there is some checklist that they need in order to have a perfect, the brand name. And there really is no such thing because it's so context dependent, the way I like to frame it is to think about names through three different lenses, creative, which is pretty clear, you know, you want a name that's memorable or distinctive catchy in some way, but also strategic. And this is where I think a lot of small businesses miss the mark. So think about what your competitors are named, think about what kind of meaning you're trying to convey through the names. So it's not just about being funky and creative. It's also about yeah. What it means or doesn't mean. And then lastly, technical, which is sort of the logistics, another place that people often make a mistake, is it gonna be legally available? Is it gonna cause you linguistic problems in other, you know, not just other countries, but even locally, if you have a Spanish speaking community in your, uh, city yeah.

John Jantsch (06:31): In your name means goat, dun some other language,

Rob Meyerson (06:35): Right? Yeah. Yeah. So checking and doing all, you know, checking all of those things is, is critical. So in the book I do list nine different things, three in each of those three categories, but I think it's, it's more important to sort of think just about those three areas, creative, strategic, and technical, and, and make sure that you're doing your homework and considering all three, how important

John Jantsch (06:56): Do you feel it is for a name to evoke some sort of emotion?

Rob Meyerson (07:02): I think again, it depends. I know it's a boring answer, but it can be extremely powerful. I mean, what, one of the most important things I think about for, for any name and almost any scenario is memorability. That's a pretty universal trait of a good brand name. There, there are occasions where it matter as much, but generally if you're naming a company or product, you just want it to stick in people's mind minds like duct tape marketing. And, and one of the, I mean, one of the most powerful ways to make something memorable is to have people attach an emotion to it and it makes them laugh. It makes them smile. And it's nostalgic. Those things really creates sort of hooks in into your memory, that, to do it another, you know, there are more superficial ways to do it, make it rhyme, right. Um, you know, use alliteration and any of those things could, could be a big help

John Jantsch (07:49): As you do this. You have, you know, you, you help a brand maybe re rename or refocus. Um, how do you measure if it was successful? You know, obviously there be the gut feeling like, oh, that sounds good. Or people seem to like it, you know, all our stakeholders are in, but, but ultimately what may successful.

Rob Meyerson (08:07): Well, yeah, that's one of the hardest things about, about it, a naming project and about so many creative services. Yeah. I think one of the reasons it's hard is because you have to give it time. And so I often go back to clients, you know, they, they may be ecstatic when it launches or frankly, sometimes they'll have real doubts in reservations and they'll push ahead, um, bravely, but either way, I like to go back six months or a year later and ask what the experience has been. And if it's been successful and nine times outta 10, or even more than that, especially in those cases where people have the, those doubts, they'll say, you know what? The doubts were unfounded a year later, we can't imagine this having been called anything else. And that's a pretty that that's not necessarily me touting my, my brilliance. It's, it's sort of human nature. Yeah. That as you use a name for something day after day for a year, it just starts to feel so natural. And sometimes it's really, really hard to see that on day one.

John Jantsch (09:01): Yeah. Sometimes maybe if the immediate reaction is like, I love it. It can be bad. It can fade. Right. as opposed to becoming

Rob Meyerson (09:10): Stronger. Yes. And often the, that reaction can be the result of it sounding like something else that's already out there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it sounds like apple. And so I like it, but you know, really, should you sound like apple or should you, should you be something, uh, else

John Jantsch (09:26): I, I always, this is a silly analogy, but I was, I always used to love, you know, I'd get an album from an artist that I really liked and it was like that first song and I just loved it. I loved it of it, you know, like first play and then like, I couldn't stand it a couple months later. And it was like the deep tracks that lasted with me, you know? And I think this a little bit of that. Do you have any, I know you have lots of, uh, stories in the book about brands and, and the process. Do you have any kind of favorite success stories? That's, that's part a of the question. And then of course these won't be any of your clients, but do you have any bombs too?

Rob Meyerson (09:56): Yes. Uh, yes. And yes. Well, I'll, I'll go sort of historical, I guess. Cause, cause I have favorite brand names from, uh, literally centuries ago and, and some, um, more recent Kodak I think is just a great brand name. It's one of these strange things where, and I'm, this is not necessarily the way to do it these days, but George Eastman liked the sound of K. He liked that strong K sound and he just wanted to make up a word that contained that and came up with Kodak and it's, it works so well because it it's lack of meaning is partly its strength in that it could work for just about anything. And adaptability is, is one of those factors that I mentioned in the book of a strong brand and, and, you know, it's, it's survived as much as that brand has addeds up and downs.

Rob Meyerson (10:40): That's a name that is, is still very much a household name and they've done a good job protecting it as well. You know, a lot of names that old have become what's called genericized, you know, zipper and escalator used to be brand names, but they became just everyday words. People lost couple Kool-Aid. Yes. Kleenex is, is at risk of that and bandaid. So that's a great one. Uh, you know, more recently there's a carbonated CBD beverage called recess. Mm-hmm and I just love that band. So that's the opposite of Kodak and that it's a real English word and I love the associations talk about out an emotional, uh, trigger there. You know, it just makes me think of the playground in third and fourth grade and the sort of fun of that. And I think the beverage is positioning itself as fun and, and relaxing and things like that.

John Jantsch (11:30): I actually kinda like those words that have, um, multiple meanings, you know, it's like, they it's like, okay, yeah, this is re recess, but it also, this might not be what they were after, but it's, it's kinda like the recesses of your mind or something, you know? I mean, so that may not have been what they're after, but you know, I love, well,

Rob Meyerson (11:48): Well, it's also, it's, it's also the break, whether it's a break from school or a break, like court court goes to recess as well. Right. Yeah. And so that idea of just taking a little break is, is nice. Yeah. Yeah. Some of the horror stories out there, the one that I pick on the most honestly is, uh, trunk, which was a somewhat short-lived abbreviation, although it was the official name for Tribune online content. So the T R O N C . And I think the worst thing about it, and this is subjective, but it just sounds like something gross or best silly, you know, it's unlike Kodak, it's meaninglessness. I think it, it doesn't work well for it. They took something that did have meaning Tribu online content a bit boring and, and just erase them meaning by coming up with this esoteric abbreviation. So I just think the combination of ugliness and, and lack of meaning is, is a real failure. A lot of the, the naming kind of failures, you may not even see because the issue with them is the legal aspect. Oh yeah. Occasionally you do see this where companies have to change their name because of a legal problem. And that's, that's one of the worst case scenarios and, and it's, you know, the names may be great. Otherwise you may think, oh, that's a, that's a really cool creative name, but if they end up having to change it, that's probably a lot worse than if they just had a sort of board.

John Jantsch (13:11): Yeah. That's I know that's happened to a few franchises, you know, where they, they were just a local mom and pop thing that wanted to go nationwide and all of a sudden it's like, oops.

Rob Meyerson (13:19): yes, yes, yes. Back to your question about whether it's important for local businesses.

John Jantsch (13:24): I think so.

John Jantsch (13:24): And now let's hear from a sponsor, whether you're looking to sell your business in the near future, or just wanna make it more scalable and profitable Work Better Now, as virtual assistance can help you get there. Adding a virtual assistant to your team can help you focus on high value activities like business development to boost your bottom line work better. Now, clients say that their virtual executive assistants have made an impact on their business. Well beyond their expectations for only $1,900 a month, you get a full-time assistant who is 100% dedicated to your business. There are no contracts, no additional cost based in Latin America with incredible English, proficiency and business experience work better. Now assistance undergo a rigorous screening and onboarding process work better. Now is currently offering duct tape marketing readers and listeners $150 off per month for three months, just mentioning 'duct tape' to learn more, visit workbetternow.com.

John Jantsch (14:21): So it seems like one of the riskiest plays is the made up word, you know, because it doesn't mean anything. You have to invest a lot of energy in making it mean something, but it seems like the rewards sometimes is really big too. I, I mean, even if you use apple, I mean, apple means so as a word, but it certainly doesn't mean anything to do with computers necessarily other than the bite that they tried to, uh, put into the logo. But, but talk to me a little bit about, you know, is the risk versus reward, you know, worth it there or should, is it really a lot, uh, simpler to just kind of say, everybody knows what we do now because the word marketing is in our name,

Rob Meyerson (14:57): Right? Yeah. Well, a couple of things to address there. One is you've pinpointed this distinction between what I call the naming approach, which is mostly like, how much does it have to do with the business or the brand or the, or the pro. So apple and Kodak as words have nothing to do with the underlying, uh, product. Right. But then there's also the construct. And so apple is a real word. Kodak is a Madoff word. I think that there are risks and rewards either way. I, I think that tying it too closely to exactly what you do in the, in most cases at the company and a level has more risks

John Jantsch (15:34): Than rewards international business machines, for example,

Rob Meyerson (15:38): Yes. Or international house of pancakes. And they ran this big ad, flipping the P to B for burgers. And as much as that campaign may have worked for them, I still think that name has kind of trapped them into people thinking it's just for breakfast.

John Jantsch (15:50): Yeah. Yeah. So, so let's talk about we've started. Oh, oh, first I had to share my horse, not horror story, but one that I don't like a lot of the utilities have renamed because they were true monopolistic utilities. And so they could call themselves Kansas city power and light. But now that they've joined forces and they're no longer sort of the monopolistic utility, Kansas city power and light now ever G a V E R G Y. And I think it's the worst name in the world.

Rob Meyerson (16:17): and, and it's because of how it feels in your mouth when you say it. Right. It just, those sounds, yeah, it's, it's hard to quantify, but those, that combination sounds kind of like trunk. Yeah. Just doesn't feel quite right. And, and I

John Jantsch (16:31): Feel like there's one sort of naming practice that people do is they try to squish words together and make up a word rather than like a Kodak, which is totally meaningless, ever energy probably had something to do with like evergreen energy or something like that, that they stuck together's

Rob Meyerson (16:44): Right. And what we talk about a lot in meaning is linguistic naturalness, which is a fancy way of saying, does it, does it feel like a real word? And I think Kodak it's similar to Kodiak and, and you know, if you said it to a kid, they'd say, what does it mean? Because it sounds like a real word, whereas, right. Yeah. AGY it feels concocted. Yeah. And there was a lot of that also in, you know, well, it's, it's been around forever with things like jello and Windex, these different suffixes that were popular, but it really was at its heyday in kind of the nineties and early two thousands around, you know, dot com boom. 1.0 with Alta Vista and things like this. Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:22): All right. Let's, let's talk a little bit about, because you have a process for how you go about doing this, right. So let's talk a little bit about the steps in kind of how brand naming works.

Rob Meyerson (17:31): Sure. So the first thing that we recommend doing is coming up with naming brief and anyone who's done any kind of creative work will be familiar with the concept of a creative brief, but getting down on paper, exactly what you want this name to do, what kinds of names are inbounds and out of bounds. And then critically making sure that everyone involved has seen that brief and agreed on it. And in some cases signed off, once that's done, then you, you get into kind of the quote fun part of just generating names and you come up with it may surprise people to hear that on a typical naming project will come up with hundreds or sometimes over a thousand ideas. Do you, do you use

John Jantsch (18:06): Any of these tools that are these AI generators that are there now to kind of start that process?

Rob Meyerson (18:10): I, I don't, I know other neighbors do. I have used there, there are crowdsourcing tools as well, which I, I have used once or twice, but generally I'll use a, a small team of professional neighbors who have a lot of experience and they'll put hours and hours into this. And the reason we come up with so many is, is so that we still have some left at, to the next few steps, which are shortlisting. So pulling the, the best out of that long, long list and putting those through preliminary trademark screening and linguistic screening, which is to avoid some of the pitfalls that we've already talked about. Like finding out somebody else is using the name or finding out it means something gross. And another language once we get that, that shorter them, that's gone through that. We present names. So this is in a consultant to client format, obviously, but even if you're doing this inside your company or for your own company, you might wanna present to your colleagues or, you know, to your friends or family, that's helping you make this decision. If that's the case. And that act of presenting names is something that's often really over the looked the, the gut way that people do. This is they'll just say, Hey, what do you think of this name? Or they'll email 10 ideas to their friend and say, pick the best one. Yeah. And that never works. right. You, you really have to put a lot of thought into providing the right context, priming your audience for this, the kind of decision that they're about to make and how they should evaluate these different options.

John Jantsch (19:31): Maybe even like what's the brand promise. I mean, just a lot of like context that that is gonna make it relevant or not. Yeah.

Rob Meyerson (19:38): And if you, you may, may have experienced this, but if you just say like, what do you think of these three ideas? Right. Usually it'll be, uh, they'll suck. I could come up with something better. Or, or even if they like one of 'em, they may not like it for the rightly. And then after that, you still have to do a deeper legal search, usually that you've done in that preliminary stage. And once you have that, those deeper legal, that, that sort of official legal opinion from a trademark attorney, that's when you can make your final decision. And so that's the last step, uh, is just narrowing it down to one.

John Jantsch (20:11): So given the fact that that you've sort of admitted that time will tell whether or not it was a good name, you know, do you, is there a lot of, kind of gut-wrenching about like, okay, we're all in on this.

Rob Meyerson (20:22): Yeah. I mean, it depends on who's making the decision. I do feel that it's generally helpful to have one person who's has ultimate responsibility for making the,

John Jantsch (20:32): Or nobody decides,

Rob Meyerson (20:33): Right. Or at least have an odd number. So there's a tie breaker because what'll kill, this is the, you know, trying to get unanimity. Everybody loves it. That that just doesn't happen to your earlier

John Jantsch (20:43): Point. You get, you get energy out that

Rob Meyerson (20:45): Yeah, exactly. To your yes, exactly. Or you just get the most boring option on the list that doesn't offend anybody, but nobody really likes that much. And yeah, I do think you can then look at these factors that generally speaking, make some names better than others that we started the conversation with. I just would reiterate that it's not about checking every box and it's not even necessarily that the best name will check the most boxes. It's just a hand Andy way to compare names that otherwise seem good or like they could be great.

John Jantsch (21:17): Okay. Here's a check box that used to be on the list. And maybe it's not as important. I wanna ask you how, how important is it that the.com name is available? It used to be when we were all getting started in these URLs, it was really, really important, but now there's all these.info dot, you know, all these other variations. Plus we don't use the web. Like we used to. I mean, you know, it's like we don't need phone numbers. We Google it. Yeah. So, you know, how important is, is a match to the URL?

Rob Meyerson (21:44): Well, you said it it's less and less important and you know, I'll acknowledge that for some businesses. It it's maybe more important than others. The, the best example I can think of is I help name a streaming service. And I think if you're naming a streaming service, you want to be able to say it's maybe more important, you know, go to hulu.com or something like that. Yeah. But for most business, the easy answer is to add it a Scriptor after the name, so such and such consulting or the name plus, you know, just whatever it is, restaurant, but yeah, for the reasons you mentioned, there are so many more top level domains. Now you can get.marketing.agency.coffee.motorcycles. You people don't generally type in the exact domain they'll search for it. And so I would say take the money that you might spend on getting the exact domain and put that towards and content that's gonna drive people to your site. Yeah, yeah. For those reasons I would rather have people have a great name and a quote, unquote, imperfect domain than force the perfect domain and come up with a name that nobody can pronounce or something like. Right. Right.

John Jantsch (22:44): Well, Rob, thanks so much for stopping by the duct tape marketing podcast to talk about naming you and tell people where they can find a, up more about you and, and pick up a copy of brand naming.

Rob Meyerson (22:52): Sure. Well, brand naming is for sale on Amazon and elsewhere that books are sold. Um, if you just wanna learn more about it, you can go to brand naming book.com and, and you'll see reviews and testimonials, and you can also buy it from there. And just to learn more about me, it's Robmeyerson.com and EY E R. And so, and from there, you can find my agency heirloom. You can find out more about the book and some articles I've written about naming. If you wanna read those. So either of those sites will work well.

John Jantsch (23:20): Heirloom is the name of, uh, my favorite little tiny bakery in, in Kansas city, Missouri, a actually by the way. So I get a warm feeling every time I hear that. Yeah.

Rob Meyerson (23:28): An emotional, an emotional connection.

John Jantsch (23:30): That's right. Well, Rob, thanks again for stopping by. And hopefully we'll see you one of these days out there on the road.

Rob Meyerson (23:34): Thanks. I appreciate it.

John Jantsch (23:39): All right. That wraps up another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. I wanna thank you so much for tuning in, feel free to share this show. Feel free to give us reviews. You know, we love those things. Also, did you know that we had created training, marketing training for your team? If you've got employees, if you've got a staff member that wants to learn a marketing system, how to install that marketing system in your business, check it out. It's called the certified marketing manager program from duct tape marketing. You can find it at ducttapemarketing.com and just scroll down a little and find that tab that says training for your team.

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