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2 Creative Ways To Fuel Your Referral Engine

Marketing Podcast with John Jantsch

john-jantschIn this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I’m doing the final part of a five-episode solo show series where I’m covering one of my favorite topics: referrals. You can catch the first episode, second episode, third episode, and fourth episode of the Referral Generation series here.

Key Takeaway:

I’m doing a series on Referral Generation where I’m presenting what I’m calling the seven grades of referral fuel.

In the first episode of the series, I introduce all seven approaches. In the second episode, I dive into why you should have referral offers for every client and what those offers should look like. In the third episode, I share why there’s immense value in working with partners who also serve your existing clients and why leveraging your internal team for referral generation is essential. In the fourth episode, I talk about one of the most powerful forms of lead generation your business can build: strategic partnerships.

In this episode, I’m wrapping up this referral series and masterclass on referral generation. I cover the last two approaches that are particularly unique but have extremely potent potential: creating your own expert networking club and building a referral mastermind system.

Topics I cover:

  • [1:38] The sixth approach is creating your own expert networking club
  • [2:59] Where strategic partners can fit into this idea
  • [3:25] An example success story from my newest book of how creating a networking group has worked extremely well for others
  • [4:51] Why creating a group like this is a commitment and a long-term strategy – it takes time for this approach to flourish
  • [7:43] The seventh approach is building a referral mastermind system
  • [8:39] Creating a monthly referral training for your clients
  • [9:26] Why this works particularly well if your clientele is B2B
  • [10:04] Teaching others how to generate more referrals leads to more referrals for your business – the law of reciprocity just happens

Resources I mention:

More About The Certified Marketing Manager Program Powered By Duct Tape Marketing:

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the duct tape marketing podcast is brought to you by the MarTech podcast, hosted by my friend, Ben Shapiro brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network with episodes you can listen to in under 30 minutes, the MarTech podcast shares stories from world class marketers who use technology to generate growth and achieve BI and career success. Recent episode, one of my favorite extending the lifetime value of your customer. You know, I love to talk about that. Listen to the MarTech podcast, wherever you get your podcast.

John Jantsch (00:44): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch, and I'm doing another solo show. We're gonna talk about referrals. This is a wrap up. This is session number five of me covering the seven grades of referral fuel. If you haven't caught the other shows, you can find them at ducttape.me/podcast In the show notes. Uh, we'll link to all those shows. So you can kind of somehow put all five shows on referrals together. It kind of a, it equates almost to a masterclass on my thinking on the idea of referral generations. Hopefully you can check it out. Love to hear your feedback, love your and testimonials, uh, on the show. All right, this is, uh, number six of seven. So I'm gonna cover two of them today. This one, and, and actually both of these kind of are a little bit, they're not out there, but they're certainly not practice every day, but I think for the, the right business, the right person that really takes this and runs with it.

John Jantsch (01:41): So both of these ideas could be, be extremely, extremely potent. All right. So I did number six is to create your own expert networking club. Many folks are familiar with organizations like BNI, you know, where people get together and, and join a network of non-competing businesses. And they think about, uh, you know, generating referrals, uh, you know, from, from, and with each other. And those can be great for the right businesses. Those can be great organizations. The only problem is, is, you know, you're joining something that's already established. You really don't know who's there. Uh, you don't get to pick , you know, who's there. And so it's a potent idea, but what, what if you could control it completely? And what I mean by that is what would stop you from creating your own event? That was a regular, whether you call it a club or whatever you call, it is something that, that people would come to.

John Jantsch (02:38): So it might be like a monthly breakfast that, you know, I'm in, I'm in the marketing space. So I might know, create something, the monthly marketing breakfast, and I would just invite people locally. You know, maybe they'd pay for breakfast, but they'd come and they'd hear for the price of breakfast. They'd hear, you know, some small business topic and it, you know, it doesn't always have to be marketing in my case. Maybe I'd bring in some of my strategic partners. If you listen to last the, the last show on, on referrals, I talked extensively about strategic partners. So this would be a great opportunity for you to bring in those other professionals or folks that, that you work with and have them teach topics. So you're not just doing all the heavy lifting, you're really keeping it, really keeping it relevant, you know, keeping it, uh, potent for, you know, reason for people to come.

John Jantsch (03:25): Now, one example that that I've used actually in, in my book, the, the ultimate marketing engine was a woman who, you know, it doesn't, here's my point. It doesn't have to be related to your business. If there, if there's a topic or a reason to bring people together, that's going to be a value to them. Uh, it doesn't directly have to be related to your business. So the profile or the woman that I profile in my book, uh, actually was a real estate agent, but she was pretty good at marketing and learned a lot of these new, you know, digital tactics and things. And so she thought, well, I'll just reach out to entrepreneurs and see if they want to have me and, and other folks that I work with talk about marketing topics. And so she brought in entrepreneurs and businesses and, uh, around this topic of, of generally around the topic of marketing and they would meet, you know, monthly for breakfast started very small.

John Jantsch (04:11): I think the last time, uh, I talked to her, it was around two, 300 people would come to this thing. Well, she was not selling real estate. She wasn't talking out real estate, you know, is any of this, but she was clearly the one who benefited from, Hey, you know, I'm your host, you know, I'm bringing this together. Here's the next ex expert I'm bringing to you. So consequently, almost all of her business came when somebody, you know, who was in this club needed to buy or sell a house, guess who they thought of. So it really can just be a for you to, uh, you know, to, to build some authority, to build some influence regardless of the industry, uh, that you're in. Now. There's a couple things that, that I think, make some sense on, if you're gonna take this approach, you're gonna have to commit to it.

John Jantsch (04:55): I mean, it's something where you maybe go out and get, you know, your existing clients and the 10 of you, you know, meet for the first time and then you ask them to bring people. So it's something that you'll, you can't just say, I'm gonna do this one day and, and have it just magically turn into this, uh, incredible thing. It's gonna take an investment of time and energy and, and probably some resources in the beginning, but it could build to the point where it could be a significant revenue generator, uh, for your business. I think the people that have done this kind of thing, there's another organization that I profiled the book called cadre, which is in the Washington, uh, DC area. And it was the same thing. It was a, a financial advisor who, you know, just got tired of going to the traditional networking things that everybody said you had to go do in order to, to, to meet people in that business.

John Jantsch (05:46): So he, he just started creating these monthly get togethers and he would bring in, you know, experts and authors and, you know, it was very, almost curated, you know, grew to the point where it actually is. It actually became, he actually sold his financial, uh, planning practice. And, and in is doing this full time now is, is running this kind of networking club that, you know, people are very, very engaged in as, as members of this. So, you know, it, it really, it it's an idea that could be a very big idea, but even, even as a small size idea, I think it really can do a lot of very positive things for your business. Now, I know some of the, in addition, I mean, I think these things work probably the best when people can physically get together. But I think also creating some sort of platform in like meet up and, or event bright, or even LinkedIn and Facebook, you know, events and groups, you know, having something so people can kind of in between these, uh, get togethers communicate as well.

John Jantsch (06:42): But I think that, that, you know, creating that kind of thing, there are many, many businesses that that can benefit from that.

John Jantsch (06:48): This episode of the duct tape marketing podcast is brought to you by send in blue and all in one digital marketing platform, empowering small businesses to build store longer customer relationships through end to end digital marketing campaigns. They support businesses successfully navigating their digital presence in order to strengthen their customer relationships. Sendin blue allows you to create captivating and personalized email campaigns, custom landing pages, sign up forms, automated workflows, transac messaging, CRM, and more, and best of all, duct tape marketing listeners can click on sendinblue.com/ducttapemarketing to sign up for a free trial. And if you use the promo code on that page, duct tape, you'll get 50% off for your first three months, either on a light or premium account.

John Jantsch (07:41): All right, the seventh idea is something I call a referral mastermind system. So the idea behind this, and this is, I think this can work for a lot of types of businesses, but any business that has clients businesses as clients, uh, I will have that caveat you'd need to be selling to businesses for this to work. One of the things that most of those businesses want is more business is more referrals now, regardless of what you do, obviously it's very natural. I do. I'm a marketing consultant. So me going to, to clients and saying, let me teach you how to generate Earls for your business. I mean, that's a very, very logical thing, but you don't have to be, imagine that financial planner I talked about and they let's say they were working with businesses or law firm, it doesn't really matter. You're working with businesses.

John Jantsch (08:33): Well, all of those businesses, yes, they want what you do for them, but they also want more business. And so what if you create created a kind of monthly referral training for your clients and, and this, and in effect, it's not gonna really be this high level training in some ways, it's, it's really gonna be about you bringing them together to talk about and facilitate the, the idea of referral generation, right? In fact, you could do this in one, on one or, or certainly in groups, you could create some sort of compensation or point system where, you know, people are, you're teaching a referral topic, but you're teaching them a referral topic each month. You're, you're getting them together to talk about how to generate more referrals, or maybe just effectively talking about what they did that month to, to generate referrals. Maybe in some cases they would actually refer each other.

John Jantsch (09:26): In fact, in a lot of instances where if you're B, if your clientele is primarily B2B, that's probably going to happen, but ultimately what's gonna happen is they're going to refer business to you. You, if you, if you help somebody get more referrals, it is just sort of a, a human law of human nature. re recipro. I never can say that word reciprocity. There we go. You know, just happens. I mean, if you're teaching somebody how to generate more referrals, they're going to, to really reply and kind, and generally speaking, you know, you're the financial planner or you're the lawyer. Who's actually not only doing the legal work that you are hired to do. You're actually teaching them how to build their business. Who's not gonna refer that business. Who's not gonna want to bring people into your, you know, your referral mastermind group.

John Jantsch (10:16): So this is something that, you know, I just wanna plant the seed for this idea, but I, you know, this would be very easy. If you've already got a client base, this would be very easy to put together. You just create, you know, you just talk about it as almost a networking group or, you know, referral mastermind loosely. It's gonna be about teaching referrals or facilit facilitating, uh, referrals. You can pick up a book or two on, on the idea of referrals. The ultimate marketing engine comes to mind. I wrote another book called the referral engine, you know, pick up either one of those books and you'll have a whole curriculum for what to teach in your, you know, if you, if you take this idea and you know, you spend a few, your monthly meeting might look like you spending a, you know, few minutes meeting in greeting, then people just go around and share, Hey, here's a success I had then maybe for 20 minutes, you teach a key lesson.

John Jantsch (11:05): Then a lot of times in mastermind groups, it's very common to say, put somebody in a hot seat and say, well, here's, you know, let's talk about a challenge you're having. And then obviously if there's any way to share referrals in, you know, in, at, you know, or somebody can say, Hey, here's a referral I'm looking for. I, I think just these won't have to be that structured. I, I, I believe an experience that teaches me has taught me that, you know, just bringing people together with, even with a loose agenda is going to bear fruit. They're going to find, uh, that valuable. So it's, if that's the case, it's certainly gonna be worth the time that you invest in doing it. All right. So that's my seven grades of referral fuel. Hopefully you've got some, uh, extra tips and ideas out of the, we'll try to connect the whole series for you. There are actually five, this is number five of five. Hopefully you've had a chance to listen to the other four. If not, you can find them at ducttape.me/podcast. All right. Take care out there. And hopefully we'll see you someday soon out there on the road.

John Jantsch (12:07): All right. That wraps up another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. I wanna thank you so much for tuning in and feel free to share this show. Feel free to give us reviews. You know, we love those things. Also, did you know that we had created training, marketing training for your team? If you've got employees, if you've got a staff member that wants to learn a marketing system, how to install that marketing system in your business, check it out. It's called the certified marketing manager program from duct tape marketing. You can find it at ducttapemarketing.com and just scroll down a little and find that tab that says training for your team.

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network and Sendinblue.

HubSpot Podcast Network is the audio destination for business professionals who seek the best education and inspiration on how to grow a business.

 

sendinblue

Sendinblue, an all-in-one digital marketing platform empowering small businesses to build stronger customer relationships through end-to-end digital marketing campaigns. We are here to support businesses successfully navigating their digital presence in order to strengthen their customer relationships

Sendinblue allows you to create captivating and personalized email campaigns, custom landing pages, signup forms, automated workflows, transactional messaging, CRM, and more. Duct Tape Marketing fans can click here to learn more about Sendinblue and sign up for a free trial!  You can also use this promo code to get 50% off your first three months on either our lite or premium account!

purpose and direction

How To Brand With Purpose

Marketing Podcast with Ivan Estrada

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview Ivan Estrada. Ivan is a business leader and real estate broker with extensive experience in the industries of real estate and finance. He is a sought-after public speaker on topics of branding and marketing, personal development, and real estate. He’s also the author of Brand With Purpose: Find Your Passion, Stay True to Your Story, and Accelerate Your Career.

Key Takeaway:

When you brand yourself authentically, stay true to who you are, and share that version of yourself with the world, the results always follow.

In this episode, Ivan Estrada shares critical lessons about personal growth and self-discovery. He shares how your own experiences, challenges, and obstacles hold the key to creating a timeless brand that builds loyalty, influence, and trust―a brand with purpose.

Questions I ask Ivan Estrada:

  • [1:39] Story is a huge part of personal brands which is a crowded space and hot topic right now. What do you new things do you hope to introduce around this topic?
  • [3:46] Are there any kind of core stories from your upbringing, your family, your culture that you lean on that to tell to help people get your why?
  • [6:10] How do you marry the need to stand out while maintaining authenticity—not just standing out for the purpose of standing out?
  • [10:06] What are some of your favorite tools for telling and sharing the story?
  • [12:48] What would you tell the person who says that video isn’t for them?
  • [15:31] What role do you think design graphic design plays in the support of or elevation of a personal brand?
  • [17:32] How do you relate networking done right with building a personal brand?
  • [21:33] What role does being able to tell the story about the impact you want to make and believe in plays in personal brands?
  • [23:24] Where can people learn more about Brand With Purpose and all of the work that you’re doing?

More About Ivan Estrada:

More About The Duct Tape Marketing Consultant Network:

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the duct tape marketing podcast is brought to you by the MarTech podcast, hosted by my friend, Ben Shapiro brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network with episodes, you can listen to in under 30 minutes. The MarTech podcast share stories from world-class marketers who use technology to generate growth and achieve business and career success. Recent episode, one of my favorite extending the lifetime value of your customer. You know, I love to talk about that. Listen to the MarTech podcast, wherever you get your podcasts.

John Jantsch (00:44): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Ivan Astrada is a business leader and real estate broker with extensive experience in the industries of real estate and finance. It's a sought after public speaker on topics of branding and marketing, personal development and real estate. He's also the author of a new book called brand with purpose. Find your passion, stay true to your story and accelerate your career. So Ivan, welcome to the show.

Ivan Estrada (01:14): Thank you, John. Thank you so much for having me. Let's just

John Jantsch (01:16): Get this out of the way right off the bat. The category, the book category of personal brand is become a crowded space. It has very hot topic and you touch on some themes that I think are very common. We'll get into a little bit. So I guess I want to give you the chance to say, but here's the new stuff I'm bringing to it. Obviously you, you, even in the subtitle stay true to your story. A story is a huge part of personal brand. Well, maybe let's start there. What do you hope to accomplish or, or bring new to the topic?

Ivan Estrada (01:46): Absolutely. Yeah. Uh, regarding with branding and marketing, as I was writing this book, there's a ton of books out there that give you the advice of this is what you need to do. This is what you need to post. This is what your marketing needs to look like. Mine is more about going inward and doing a lot of personal development work. I realized that for me personally, and for a lot of colleagues of mine, is that in order to show up as an authentic brand, if you own your own company or you're working under another company is getting over a lot of the shares. There was a lot of shame that I was holding onto for many years, as I was showing up and building my company, I wasn't really building my company authentically. And so what I had to do was I did a lot of personal development work if going inward and figuring out why am I ashamed of X? Why am I ashamed of why? How do I overcome those obstacles? So that, that way, how I brand myself is who I truly am and not what the environment or my family or my friends or society's telling me, I need to be like, okay,

John Jantsch (02:49): It sounds painful actually. Or at least hard. Yeah.

Ivan Estrada (02:54): It's not, it's not easy. I will tell you that, but I promise you that the results that you get, honestly, it's when you're, when you're really branding yourself authentically, it's easy, right? There's yes. There's all these things that you can learn about during podcast or trainings. And these are the colors that are working, and this is the tic talks and the digital media reels and all the other stuff that works. But in order for all of that, to really make sense and to resonate with your audience, you really need to know who are you like, who are you? And who are you trying to connect with? So that way there is a clear connection between you and your audience, because if not, then you tend to just do whatever is being told either by your who your, your chief marketing officer or your coach is telling you to do. And if it's not sticking it's because it's not who you really are.

John Jantsch (03:45): Speaking of the topic of story, are there any, are there any kind of core stories from your upbringing, your family, your culture, that, that I, that you lean on that to tell to, to help people get your Y?

Ivan Estrada (03:59): Oh, absolutely. As a kid, I grew up in Eagle rock, California. My dad was a janitor. Still is, my mom was a seamstress. And growing up, I realized that we didn't have much, but what we did have was I was a great salesman. I knew that as a kid, cause I got away with a lot of things as a child. And my sister was a great artist. She knew how to draw. And I remember one day I thought, okay, if we want to go to college, we're going to have to start saving up now. And, and I had my sister start drawing the neighbor's home. She would draw them out and I would go up to their door. I would knock. And I would say, hi, my name is Ivan. This is my sister vianet. We are saving for college. And we are wondering if you would like to buy this house that we had this picture that we drew of your house.

Ivan Estrada (04:44): And so that was the story that people can emotionally connect with. And absolutely we were selling them for like $2, a piece, a dollar or $2 a piece. And every single homeowner bought or $2 drawing. And I thought, wow, they connected with our story. They're connected with our cause it's not really about the product. It's about the story behind it. And for me, that resonated with everything that I did along the way as a young adult. Cause even in school like John, I was a hustler. I used to sell power ranger cards, porgs, candies, you name it. I, I, and not just myself. I actually recruited students in the playground that hung out with different people in the playground. It was like I was expanding my team and my brand and I would hire them and they would get either paid through candy or whatever the product was or I would pay them as a kid. I was like eight, nine years old. I'm surprised I didn't get in trouble, but that's kind of like, I just knew that there was a story to it. We hadn't needed to attach a story to anything that we were doing that people could connect with and it worked.

John Jantsch (05:45): So here's what I really need to know. You gave your sister 50 cents. You kept a dollar.

Ivan Estrada (05:50): I probably, yeah, three years younger. She, she was fine with a quarter actually, but I, I probably did give her fifties. It's actually, you know what? I was a really good brother. We shared everything 50 50. We had these two little piggy banks and we would put it in the piggy bank. So I, I was a pretty fair brother. I think.

John Jantsch (06:08): So another thing that obviously people common advice in, in personal branding work is this idea that you have to stand out. You have to be different. But again, I find that that's where people, people getting that and realizing, oh, I need to be this. Or I need to do that. Or I need to have this color hair really is, is it can be a way to stand out. Cause also be a really easy way to be in authentic. But how do you marry those two things of the need to stand out, but then not just for standout sake,

Ivan Estrada (06:37): Right? That's a good question. So this is actually an exercise within the book that I thought was very good for personal branding and to figure out what your strengths are and what are the things that you want to highlight was I would draw out a timeline and I'd go back as far as I can remember. And at the top of the line, I would put some very pivotal moments of my career. Like for me, I was in the music industry. Like the moment I was signed to the record company, boom. Um, when I graduated from USC, from the Leventhal school of accounting, boom, when I got my CP license, boom, like all these different things that for me were like milestones and, and, and huge accomplishments. And so those were the things that, for me, that I attached to my personal brand, I know friends of mine who are in, in, in the real estate business.

Ivan Estrada (07:25): A lot of them have a huge connection to horses. They rode horses as kids. They ride horses. Now that's part of their brand. A lot of people, there's another guy here at my office who loves cooking. And so cooking he's been, uh, he's. He actually had a restaurant, two restaurants actually. And so he attaches that part of the, the cooking part to his real estate business. And so I think you need to find things that are there that are unique to you. And not that are unique to other people because if you're trying to copy other people, it's like, those are not your gifts. Like, think about the gifts that you've gotten through time that you can be really proud about. And how can I embed that into my brand, into my narrative, into my story so that I can connect with other people who resonate with my cause or my story or my narrative.

John Jantsch (08:15): Yeah. And the view that example you used as a cooking thing is, is not only is that, Hey, that's different, but it also is an opportunity for people who share that to connect to isn't it

Ivan Estrada (08:25): Exactly. We do business with people that we like in all honesty. It's true. Like with anytime I pass out a referral for a vendor, they might not be the best vendor, but they're a vendor that I connect with that I know if my client worked with me because of my personality or my brand, that they're also going to like this vendor, because we're very similar. And I think that that that's always the best way to assure yourself as much as possible that you're going to have a successful, a successful referral or relationship someone that you pass your business on to because you like them because you like how they run their business. You run you, you like how they run their marketing. And they're very similar to you. This episode,

John Jantsch (09:04): The duct tape marketing podcast is brought to you by send in blue and all in one digital marketing platform, empowering small businesses to build stronger customer relationships through end-to-end digital marketing campaigns. They support businesses successfully navigating their digital presence in order to strengthen their customer relationships, send them blue allows you to create captivating and personalized email campaigns, custom landing pages, sign up forms, automated workflows, transactional messaging, CRM, and more, and best of all, duct tape marketing listeners can click on sendinblue.com/ducttapemarketing to sign up for a free trial. And if you use the promo code on that page, duct tape, you'll get 50% off for your first three months, either on a light or premium account.

John Jantsch (09:55): Let's talk about tools. What are some of your favorite tools for, for telling and sharing the story? Obviously we've been focusing on developing the story. How do you, how do you get it out there? Obviously I think one of the challenges right now is there are a lot of ways. And how do you, how do you get some momentum in one or two or three? I'd love to hear kind of your, your approach when people ask that question, cause I'm sure you get asked that

Ivan Estrada (10:18): All the time. So a great way to make sure that you can broadcast your story. As much as possible is through video. I started using video 13 years ago. Uh, when some of my colleagues were saying, what are you doing? You're wasting time that doesn't work. Just stick to what you know and what works video. And there's so many different platforms. Obviously we have YouTube for a longer kind of long medium. We have obviously like tic talk and Instagram reels that are vertical video shorter. And to the point you can also attach a video to Instagram as on, on your actual wall or on your stories or on Facebook. I would really try to focus on, for example, in my business, Instagram, Facebook and YouTube has been a huge hit. So we repurpose what we do in video on all of those three platforms. Now, the important thing is as the brand, I encourage you to be able to have as much face time and, and talking points on your videos, because I still know a lot of people who are not doing video.

Ivan Estrada (11:23): They're afraid. They're afraid of how they sound. They afraid of how they look. They think they're going to do it wrong. That's why other than the book brand with purpose, I have my course brand with video and this course module per module, we start breaking down your fears. We start building your brand pillars. We start putting content together. Um, and especially with, with all these different mediums, it's figuring out, okay, I have an idea, like how do I execute it? And how do I make sure that I'm not wasting my time wasting my money? And obviously this answer, I can go for hours talking about this, but just video, literally just grabbing your phone, going alive and doing it on your Instagram, on your Facebook, because that helps you with your algorithm and just putting yourself out there. Right? I think it goes down to that point of being vulnerable and knowing who you are, because I've noticed people who I've coached and friends of mine who have really done the work that when they start shooting video, they're a different person there. They really show up and it's not just this very shy. And, and this, this person that doesn't really seem like they know what they're talking about. Cause that's also, you don't want to seem like that on camera either. You want to make sure that people see the confidence and the poise and the command that you have in your type of business,

John Jantsch (12:37): This one up. But I'm sure somebody is you when you've given that the exact same answer, somebody said, well, that's great. But video is just not for me. What w what would you tell that person? And, and I think there are a lot of people that just don't want to be on camera.

Ivan Estrada (12:52): Right? I first I would ask why, because I think I would want to really know the answer of, okay. Video's not for you. Like, I'd love to know why have you tried it? Is it something that just makes you feel uncomfortable? Is there certain things that maybe I can push you a little bit, because I'm telling you from experience. Some of my team members that's been the answer. I, I just don't feel comfortable. And obviously anything new is going to be uncomfortable. I just have to throw myself in an ice bucket for 15 minutes, two weeks ago. I didn't want to, but it was uncomfortable. I needed to push myself once I did it. I thought, wait, it wasn't that bad. I can do it again. And once I started seeing the health results that I was getting from it, I noticed, wow, this ice bath actually works.

Ivan Estrada (13:38): I want more of it. So first is finding out why, if there's a valid reason why they don't want to do video, there's so many other mediums, you could use your voice. There's, there's a, I'm trying to think of that, that new app it'll hit me, but so there's blogs. You can write blogs. We do that as well. And you can do that. Or if you feel comfortable, your voice, there's actually animated videos where you can use your voice and still connect with your clients. And it's using animation to take over that, that face on face contact, but the other others, um, there's just other ways. But I honestly feel that video is the way the future, like people want to connect with people and it's, it's, it's getting harder to say, I don't feel comfortable with that when everyone else is jumping on the bandwagon of all ages. And most importantly, like Pete, I'm a still considered a millennial I'm on the I'm on the cusp. But anytime I look for a new vendor, doctor chiropractor, whatever it is, I look for videos. And if I can't find a video, then I keep looking because I want to make sure that I can at least get a sense of who that professional is. And I'm about to hire, to see if it's going to be a match. And

John Jantsch (14:50): From obvious I'm a fan, but I knew that you get people probably ask you that question, but just from a trust standpoint, and it's just a great way to make a connection. I'll tell you another thing that gets people over the hump for me sometimes is when you talk about all the record, five minutes

Ivan Estrada (15:04): Of video and 15 assets, that you could turn that into, it can be a blog post. It can be an audio, you can cut it up into pieces. And so all of a sudden then it's like, oh, actually that would be the easiest thing. Now, now you can repurpose it in so many different ways. Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:20): So you are essentially, I think real estate has, there's a lot of design element of real life, real estate, or a lot of graphics in real estate. And people are essentially looking at pictures to make decisions in a lot of cases about things. So what role do you think design graphic design sort of supports or elevates a personal,

Ivan Estrada (15:40): You gotta have your colors. I, for me, it's always been the blues and the whites and the colors that resonate with me. I think the reason I like the colors that I like are through childhood. My room was blue. My clothes were blue. My dad's car was blue. It was, it brings me that emotional connection with the blue color. Cause it reminds me of home. And it's funny cause my sister, her room was green. She loved green. And for her marketing agency, everything's green. Right. There's a sense of, of, of emotional connection to that color. And so I think depending on which company or what kind of, I guess industry you're in obviously design like for real estate, for example, I know a lot of real estate because I've been doing it for 13 years. It's always about trying to not steer away from the actual product, which is the home.

Ivan Estrada (16:28): Like we use design to amplify the photography and amplify the video, but not take away from it. And so I think regardless of industry, obviously graphics, colors, all of that, your personal branding is incredibly important, but knowing that it's not going to be taking away from the actual product that you're trying to sell, because I've heard this many in many times before nobody cares about your logo, right? Like I care about it because it's my name. But like nobody really cares. Like you can put it on everything, that's fine. But it's the actual product that you're delivering that is going to make your client's life better. Like why are they buying your product or service? The logo is just part of your personal branding. That's great. Keep consistency so that they remember. But at the end of the day, it's about what you're selling and why.

John Jantsch (17:21): So we've talked a little bit about some of the social tools and the fact online, how you can build audience and whatnot, but there's still for a lot of businesses, whether this is building their personal brand or just building the business itself, not networking the last 18 months, not withstanding networking is still a tremendous, powerful way to grow a business. You, you, you spend some time on that. So how do you relate networking done right with

Ivan Estrada (17:49): Building a personal brand? That's huge. That's a great question. Uh, I learned the importance of networking at USC, which was the university that I attended for undergrad. And this was before Facebook, Instagram, all these other, like I would say digital platforms existed. So I learned the, the only way that I knew, how was you go to events? You take cards, right? And you try to be as intentional as possible. So I would make a list of at least I would do research first. Can I figure out who's attending this event? Okay, great. I have that list who were the five to seven people that I want to meet in that two to three hour period, because it's not about the quantity of people I get to meet. It's the quality, it's the people that I know that there's going to be some synergy between them and I.

Ivan Estrada (18:39): And so then I would pick out the five to seven people and I would intentionally go up to those people and talk to them and try to connect with them in it. And I would always hear this from one of my professors saying, God gave you two years and one mouth. So you got to make sure that you listen first before you spend your time talking about what you do, try to make, make some, some good point of listening to them, what their business is all about. And then also most importantly, which actually this came up in conversation today is get to know what's behind the business card. Like, who are they? Where were they raised? Do they have any kids? Like, what is their favorite holiday, favorite vacation? Is there something that you can connect with other than just business and then after that's where the real work starts.

Ivan Estrada (19:27): So you just made a connection and then after that, you need to put a plan together of, okay, what's our next talking, what's our next, next meeting point. Are we gonna try to do a coffee? Are we then going to do a lunch? Am I going to invite them to a ball game? Am I going to invite them to a client appreciation party so that they can see how I treat my clients? Are, am I going to invite them to one of my networking organizations and try to build it's the followup, right? The keys in the followup of not just meeting them, getting their information, but really building a longterm relationship, which I know as a business owner, the longer you're in your business, the more people you meet, the harder it gets. So it's about really just building those relationships, sustaining those relationships, and then adding value as much as you possibly can to those people, either through direct referrals or, or either resources, information, or referrals to other people who can possibly refer them business.

Ivan Estrada (20:27): So it's, it's about like building this, this web of people who see you as a connector and not just about, especially with networking, I'm sure a lot of you can relate is you get that person just passing all those cards everywhere, as much as they possibly can. It looks like they're just throwing up, up, up in the air and hoping that people will pick them up the floor. But it's about really building that personal connection and, and seeing where it goes. Because again, back to we do with business people that we like, and it's been ordered to figure out if we like someone, we got to spend some time with them. We have to go out and, and before we send them business, really get to know who are they as people.

John Jantsch (21:09): So we started with the why we started with purpose for many people, their, their purposes, at least communicated or extended by some sort of community involvement, some sort of social impact that they're making. What, what, what role really do you feel that that plays in the personal brand to, to be able to tell the story about the impact that you want to make or the impact that you believe some important?

Ivan Estrada (21:33): Oh, that's huge. That's huge. Especially nowadays I feel like the world has become this very wobbly place in order to give back. We really need to figure out for ourselves. Okay. Our purpose is like, like for example, give my example. Like my, I was, I've been doing really well in real estate. And I got to the point where I just thought, man, like, is this it like, this is great. I'm making a great income. And I love what I do, but I don't want my tombstone to say he was the best realtor in town. Like that's not what I want it to say. I want it, I want it to get a little bit more deeper. I want to, to leave a legacy behind. And obviously this is why this book came into play of, of writing this book for the younger generation of leaders, but also trying to get it to as many kids as possible.

Ivan Estrada (22:20): Um, last week I spoke in front of 650 kids in south central, um, inspiring them about education and fighting for their dreams and allowing them to know that everything in anything is possible, as long as they work hard. And so adding that philanthropic component, I have to say, I wasn't seeking it. It, it sought me like it was something that kind of just jumped in front of me and I thought, wow, like I really connect with this. And I think there's so many other companies like Toms, who you buy a pair of shoes and they give a pair of shoes, another pair of shoes away. Like there's different companies who are adding this. I would say, I don't want to call it strategy. Cause it sounds bad. But more of like adding it to their mission statement right. Of how can we, we can become a great company and make a great profit and leave a great legacy, but we can also doing do it by doing the right thing and helping other people along the way.

John Jantsch (23:11): Yes. Awesome. So I've been tell people where they can find out more about BrandWidth purpose and the work that you're doing.

Ivan Estrada (23:18): Absolutely. It's easy. My website, Ivan astrada.com. That's my ecosystem, or you'll find my book and my courses and a lot of great real estate stuff to look at on social media. You can follow me at the Ivan Astrada at Ivan Estrada properties or at the real brand with, and that's where you'll find all the information for my books and everything else that I have to offer

John Jantsch (23:42): For something by the duct tape marketing podcast. And hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road. Sounds good. Thank you, John.

John Jantsch (23:49): All right. So that wraps up another episode. I want to thank you so much for tuning in and you know, we love those reviews and comments. And just generally tell me what you think also did you know that you could offer the duct tape marketing system, our system to your clients and build a complete marketing consulting coaching business, or maybe level up an agency with some additional services. That's right. Check out the duct tape marketing consultant network. You can find it at ducttapemarketing.com and just scroll down a little and find that offer our system to your clients tab.

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Thriving In A World Of Constant Change

Marketing Podcast with April Rinne

april-rinneIn this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview April Rinne. April is a World Economic Forum Young Global Leader and ranked one of the “50 Leading Female Futurists” in the world by Forbes. She helps individuals and organizations rethink and reshape their relationship with change, uncertainty, and a world in flux. She released a new book this year called – Flux: 8 Superpowers for Thriving in Constant Change.

Key Takeaway:

Being adaptable and flexible have always been hallmarks of effective leadership and living a fulfilling life. But in a world of constant change, flexibility and resilience can be stretched to and beyond their breaking points. The quest of life becomes how to find calm and lasting meaning in the midst of enduring chaos.

In this episode, April Rinne talks about her new book Flux and the 8 powerful mindset shifts that enable people of all ages to thrive in a time of unprecedented change and uncertainty. These eight superpowers empower people to see change in new ways, craft new responses, and reshape their relationship to change from the inside out.

Questions I ask April Rinne:

  • [1:26] Would you say that right now in this current moment that people have a new relationship with change?
  • [1:43] Why is it that we resist change so much?
  • [2:55] We just had a giant experiment in massive change for a lot of people. There were those who dealt with the change and ran towards innovation. Would you say there was an element of positivity to that change even though it’s not the change we chose?
  • [5:22]  Are you advocating that we have to actually go out there and seek change and make change instead of letting it happen to us?
  • [9:54] Can you talk a little bit about these two concepts you’ve covered  – flux baseline and flux deficit?
  • [12:11] There’s value in seeing the value in change. Would you say that if you come to a place where you have that relationship with change, you may still struggle when it hits you, but you’ll also see the value in it and the message that it carries?
  • [14:18] Would calling your book a change management book be doing it a disservice?
  • [16:32] Your book has a framework of eight superpowers. One of the things that hit me at first when I was studying it was that you have what I would call all the elements of mindfulness to them and more than just intention. Would you say that’s valid?
  • [18:01] I’ll ask you to talk a little bit about one of the superpowers that stood out a little bit. And that’s the idea of the portfolio career. Can you talk a little bit more about that?
  • [21:55] Can a culture or an organization have a flux capacity?
  • [23:36] Where can people find out more about Flux and where to connect with you?

More About April Rinne:

More About Certified Marketing Manager Program Powered By Duct Tape Marketing:

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

John Jantsch (00:01): This episode of the duct tape marketing podcast is brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network. Hey, I want to give a shout out to another member of the HubSpot network, the success story podcast, hosted by Scott D. Clary. It's one of the most useful podcasts in the world. Success story features Q & A sessions with successful business leaders, keynote presentations, conversations on sales marketing. Hey, and if you're a freelancer, his episode on how to make seven figures freelancing on Fiverr is a must listen to the success story podcast, wherever you get your podcasts.

John Jantsch (00:46): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is April. Riney a world economic forum, young global leader, and ranked one of the 50 leading female futurists in the world by Forbes. She helps individuals and organizations rethink and reshape their relationship with change uncertainty and a world of flux. And coincidentally, we are going to talk about her new book called Flux: Eight super powers for thriving in constant change. So April, welcome to the show.

April Rinne (01:20): Thank you so much, John. I'm delighted to be here.

John Jantsch (01:23): So, so would you say that right now in this current moment that people have a new relationship with Jane?

April Rinne (01:28): That's a loaded question. We need any relationship to change. I'm not sure that many possibly even most people have it yet. We've had a glimmer, but we have a lot of work to do.

John Jantsch (01:39): Uh, it's a course, well-documented people hate change. So, you know, why, why is it that we resist change so much?

April Rinne (01:46): Well, I would actually argue. It depends. So our relationship human's relationship to change. It's messy, it's complicated. And I come across people every day who are like, I love change. Well, humans and at the risk of generalizing a little bit here, but humans tend to love change. We can control that we can opt into, right? So a new relationship, a new job, a new adventure, a new haircut, right? Right. We tend to really struggle with change. We can't control. So the kind of change that blindsides you on a Tuesday after noon, it goes against your expectations. It disrupts your plans, but meanwhile, like a change, a kind of change that's really easy for you might be really hard for me and vice versa. So I bring all of this up because it's like, there are, there is no one cookie cutter formula for assessing our relationship to change. But once we start getting into it, every person I've ever met has said, you know, there's some aspect of your relationship to change that can use some improvement. So, yeah,

John Jantsch (02:52): So I don't want to go too far down the pandemic rabbit hole, but I mean, we just had a giant experiment in, in massive change for a lot of people. And I saw a lot of people who were not those, I love change who said, well, let's deal with change and let's innovate. And let's, you know, do what we have to do is that, I mean, clearly that was not under our control. It was not a change we chose, but I think there was an element of positivity to some of that change.

April Rinne (03:20): Yes. And that's what we need more of. So the way I like to frame it, and also, I know, you know, this, but listeners may not, I didn't write the book about 2020 or the pandemic I was working on this book since 2018. Although it's been, I like to think of it as three years in the writing, but more like three decades in the major of just layering this on. But I have to admit in the last 18, 20 months I've been given like the best example, like the sense of the world being in flux has really been incredible acceleration and validation of some of these ideas. So humans are really adaptable when we're forced to be. And I would argue a lot of what's happened over the last year and a half. Our backs have been against a wall and it's like, Ugh, I got to change or I'm not going to survive.

April Rinne (04:10): And whether that's you or your business or your team. So we do. So the challenge we face is that as we look towards the future and whether that's next week or next year or next, the next decade, the future has more of the kinds of change we can't control. It has more of that kind of change you resist and struggle with. And it has so much more of that. And again, this is at individual levels, organizational societal so much as in flux that we need to not just radically reshape our relationship to it, but more specifically, we need to learn how to do this. Even in times of calm when our back is not against the wall, because what you don't want, that, that we, yes, there's some positivity in it, but it tends to be after the fact, it tends to actually be quite sometimes traumatic, chaotic, difficult, not fun when it's happening. And that's what I'm trying to help people do is like get ready for that kind of change in advance. And as I like to say, it can be a lot more fun when your back's not up against a wall as well

John Jantsch (05:19): When you plan it or so, so I've always said, you know, comfort sometimes is the enemy I've changed. It's like, oh, why it's not broken? Why fix it? Even though it's horribly broken, right? So are you, in some ways, are you advocating that we have to actually go out there and just seek change and make change and you know, not let it happen to us. Okay.

April Rinne (05:38): Yes. To some degree there is this active, like leaning in and it's changed, but it's also uncertainty. And it's also from a leadership perspective, for sure. It's also ambiguity this comfort with ambiguity. So partly it is seeking it out. I would say right now, at least. And you know, my theory continues to play out every day where it's like, there's, there's just as much flux now, as there was a year ago, it just looks a little different. There's going to be just as much next year. It's going to look a little different. So like year up for the longer haul that life gives us opportunities every day to reshape how we think about, talk about, feel about, and ultimately relate and respond to change. So some of it is seeking it out and some of it is simply pay attention to what's already happening all around you because there are a lot of big and small changes improvements we can make when it comes to change.

John Jantsch (06:34): Yeah. It's funny. I actually have a sense that there are people struggling right now, more than they did say a year, year and a half ago when the change was like, you know, constant and dynamic. And now it's just kinda like a grind. And I think that, I think that there's actually more struggling. We, we, we have not actually dealt with this word. Flux Webster says it is a flowing, oh, a discharge of fluid from the body, especially when excessive or abnormal. And I won't go on to cite the examples. And then of course, who could forget the flux capacitor from the fictional piece of technology that allowed us to, time-travel why the word flux.

April Rinne (07:10): Yeah. So you have just landed on the historical medical definition as well. And there are a couple others that I'll add to the mix. Cause they're fun because we had to do a lot of surveys and testing and, you know, flux, flux, conjures up for most people. It's kind of fascinating, but they're like, I don't really know what it means. Occasionally some folks have said reflux. It's like, no, no, but flux is both a noun and a verb. And in today's modern usage, most people know the noun as constant change, continuous movement, motion, things are in flux, but it's also a verb and to flux means to learn, to become fluid. And I love that because you can think of it as the world is in flux and we all need to learn how to flux a little bit better. Now, just a fun footnote.

April Rinne (08:01): Uh, there is this medical definition of flux was actually internal bleeding, not going to go there, but there you go. It also though, and this is the one way that I still see it used today. It is a substance, a chemical compound that's used in metal smithing and jewelry making and stained glass making. And flocks is the compound that binds the Juul to the metal. So it's this or it's stained glass. It's the compound that, that allows the, the glass, the beautiful piece of glass to nest in its casing. And I love that too, because it, it allows things to stick together that wouldn't otherwise, and it helps create beauty, even though these two substances are very, very different. So anyway, that's just a bit more etymology for us.

John Jantsch (08:48): Awesome. And I'm sure that there is a software company out there somewhere named, uh, to the uses the name as well. Right?

John Jantsch (08:59): This episode of the duct tape marketing podcast is brought to you by Sendinblue and all in one digital marketing platform, empowering small businesses to build stronger customer relationships through end to end digital marketing campaigns. They support businesses successfully navigating their digital presence in order to strengthen their customer relationships, send them blue allows you to create captivating and personalized email campaigns, custom landing pages, sign up forms, automated workflows, transactional messaging, CRM, and more, and best of all, duct tape marketing listeners can click on sendinblue.com/ducttapemarketing to sign up for a free trial. And if you use the promo code on that page, DUCT TAPE, you'll get 50% off for your first three months, either on a light or premium account.

John Jantsch (09:51): All right. So you then take this and give us a couple of new concepts. And I wonder if you could just, obviously there are many, but these are the two I picked up flux baseline and flux deficit.

April Rinne (10:01): Oh, how fun. So building on this notion of our relationship to change and central theme of the book is also this concept of a flux mindset. So the state of mind that can see all change, whether it's good or bad, unexpected, or not as an opportunity to learn and to grow and to improve your flux baseline is really what is your relationship to change today? Because as we were just talking about some changes, delight us, other ones trigger us. Some changes, entice us. Other changes, derail us. Everyone is different in this regard. And everyone has strengths and weaknesses and areas of improvement and so forth. And so getting to your flux baseline is this notion of what's your starting point for this journey to reshape your relationships change. And then a flux deficit is when you're not, and this is such a fun term to riff on, you know, flexi people and flexing your flux capacity actually is another way to put your Fluxus. So a flux deficit is when you are not very flexy, when you are really struggling with change. And I ran a massive flux deficit for many years. I still, I still practice the superpowers. Everyone somehow thinks that because I've written this book that I've somehow like mastered them all. I'm like, no, I'm just exhibit a for all of them, but

John Jantsch (11:27): I'm much better than

April Rinne (11:29): Precisely. And I'm much better than I was years ago. But I also will have work to do for the rest of my life because that's what the nature of change is about. But a flux deficit is, are, is, are, are those areas that need the most help when it comes to learning? How to, if not, embrace change, see change from a place of hope, rather than fear a place of curiosity rather than danger, which is what a lot of people are struggling with today.

John Jantsch (11:59): Surely there's an assessment in here somewhere that somebody

April Rinne (12:04): Can call it your flux capacity.

John Jantsch (12:08): So I have often said, I don't know where I would be on your continuum, but I would say probably somewhere in the middle because yeah, I I'm old and crotchety and don't like change sometimes, but I've realized the value, I've seen the value in it. And so it doesn't bug me as much. In fact, I've, I've, I actually think it's changes sort of the art of living. And, and so if you come to that relationship with it, I mean, it's still, I think it's kind of like you in a way, you know, you still maybe struggle with it when it hits you, but by the same token, you, you, you see the value in it and it like shows up with a message, right?

April Rinne (12:42): Yeah. And another fun footnote on this back to nouns and verbs, I've heard, I've heard so many different framings and what I love about not just the book, but the concept is how people can kind of make it their own. And like, this is how it applies to me. And you said this, but I'm going to take it a little further. And I love that. But one of the, one of the best ways that to put it is that people love change. They hate being changed. So again, we love the, now we hate the verb, but it's the being changed. It's the allowing yourself to grow and evolve, which to your point, we tend to know like great growth comes often from the unexpected difficult changes. Right? Right. Easy to say that after the fact, at the time it's like anything, but I'm going to resist.

April Rinne (13:26): I'm going to pretend it doesn't exist. You know, all of that. And it's overcoming that to kind of regroup again, back to this mindset, thinking of your mindset as a mental muscle, strengthening that mental muscle, that's much more attuned to not just one change and like we'll fix that and go back to the way things were. That's not, it it's this constant change. And this understanding that moving forward, the way I like to put it is there is no end game. There is no steady state other than more change. And that is a pretty big difference from what we've been taught for the most part over the last several decades.

John Jantsch (14:04): All right. You ready for the kindest question anyone has ever asked you?

April Rinne (14:10): Oh, of course.

John Jantsch (14:12): Would calling this a change management book, be doing it a disservice.

April Rinne (14:19): That was easy. So I love that you kind of predicted that question perhaps because I'm finding myself in conversations sometimes recently where people like, oh, you wrote a book about change, or you wrote a book about change management. And I'm like with all due respect to change management, I did not read a book about it. I read a book about humans, relationships to change, but I do want to call out the tension and the relationship between our mindset about change and our change management strategies. And that is that I believe we're actually getting those things backwards. We are spending. And I say, we, the collectively we're spending so much time trying to figure out change management strategies, how to invest in uncertainty, what to do in the outside world. And not just those things

John Jantsch (15:09): Go matter. We want hacks, right? Yeah. And

April Rinne (15:13): Those things matter, but what we're not remembering or even realizing sometimes is that every single strategy investment and decision you make is fundamentally rooted in your mindset. So do you see change from a place of hope or fear? That's not strategy that's mindset, but that the answer to that question will absolutely shape and color and dictate the kind of strategy you set. Do you expect that things will go to plan and then get anxious or unravel when they don't, that's not strategy that's mindset, but again, so the way I like to put it is it's not that strategy doesn't matter or change management doesn't matter. It's the mindset drives both of those things, not the other way around. And when we can get clear on that inner relationship to change all this external stuff becomes clear, change management is no longer this thing. That's, I mean, we're, we're just, we're trying to triage stuff, but we're not actually doing the harder work which is gaining self-awareness about what again, what triggers us, what excites us? What is the baggage we bring to the table when we're talking about any kind of change period.

John Jantsch (16:29): So you have a belt this around eight superpowers, that's kind of the framework of the book. And one of the things that seemed at least hit me at first, when I was setting in and you have a nice graphic and all, is that all the elements have what I would call an element of mindfulness to them. And more than just intention. Is that just me?

April Rinne (16:51): No, that's intentional. I love that you pick that up. Thank you. And you know, it's interesting. I think more broadly I am walking this fine, but beautiful line between having written a book that is, you know, business it's for leadership, it's for teams. That's kind of where I sit professionally, but there's also an element of, I don't want to go so far. It's not self-helpy per se. I'm not a self-help, I'm not a guru. I'm not in that world, but this notion that all professional development and organizational development and strategy and execution all that, it is all rooted in personal growth. And this notion mindfulness, which isn't something that until recently we found much in the business world, that's at the core of everything and presence and self-awareness, and, and this ability to be rooted and grounded. And then that flows into all kinds of things around how we identify ourselves and how we value different things. How we look at our relationships and can we trust people and our pace of change and productivity, like it just shows up everywhere.

John Jantsch (17:57): So there are eight superpowers, as I said, and, and, you know, if you want to know what they are, go by the book, but I'll ask you to talk a little bit about one that maybe stood out a little bit. And that's the idea of the portfolio career. I mean, I've certainly, we've all heard people talk about that now. Especially if you're a millennial, that's, you know, what you're supposed to be doing, but I'm not, I think in the context of what you're talking about, I found that one to be the most sort of intriguing.

April Rinne (18:21): Oh, fabulous. And that one is unique amongst the eight in that it is very specifically geared towards the future of work that is itself in flux and kind of how we look at our professional identity in our overall career career development. So I love that you bring this up and each of the eight superpowers, I also have to give the kind of not caveat, but framing that they're all counterintuitive in some way, they all go against the grain of what I think a lot of us have been taught about the world and how it works and how we're supposed to show up in it. But a lot of what we've been taught is really for a world that is, as I will say, neat and tidy and orderly and predictable, you know, that the world as if we could tie it up with a boat, right, a world in flux flips a lot of that on its head.

April Rinne (19:08): So the concept of a portfolio career, the, the way that the superpower is phrased is that any future of work influx, we need to think about our careers and career development, less as a singular path to pursue or a ladder to climb. And rather more like a portfolio to cure rate as an, as an artist would, or an investor would, are lots of different kinds of portfolios, but it's this sense of our professional identity goes so far beyond our resume. Our resume is capturing only a certain kind of data that not that it's not helpful, it's an incomplete picture of any person, what they can do, what kind of value they can add. But also your resume is very much for a linear kind of work where you would study hard, get good grades, go to college, get a job, do said job for a long time and retire.

April Rinne (20:02): Like that is a script that is a linear path. That is not the reality that we're working in. And even before the great recession, sorry, not great recession, the great resignation that was in play, but the portfolio career concept maps really well with people also who are reconsidering, you know, what kind of professional life do they want, but also in the face of automation in the face of lots of unknowns, how do we actually prepare for a future of work that is a minefield of uncertainties. And so what I love to remind people is that every single person today already has a portfolio. You may just not realize it. And your portfolio is all of the skills and roles and ways you can contribute to society, add value. It's not about titles and positions and so forth. Parenting skills are in your portfolio. They're typically not allowed in your resume, right?

April Rinne (21:02): So you've got this, but also unlike a job. And I hate to sound blunt, but unlike a job that someone else gives you any job that someone else gives you, even if you love it, even if you're great at it, even if everything's going great, the fact that someone else gave you that job means that it can be taken away from you. And that makes a lot of people nervous and anxious and uncertainty just ratchets up your portfolio is yours forever. You own it. No one can take it away from you. It is your responsibility to curate it and to weave your narrative around it, but for a future of work and a world in which there's so much, we can't control this notion of a portfolio is something you actually can, and you've already got one and you can start today.

John Jantsch (21:52): You know, it's been really fun for me. You know, I kind of poked fun at millennials a little bit there, but what's been really fun for me is that, you know, who's really waking up to this idea is 55. Plus you know, is really waking up to this idea, which to me is kind of cool. So art we've been, maybe you've been talking broader, but I think people have probably sensed it. We're talking about individual and flux, but you know, can a culture have a flex capacity? Can an organization have a flex capacity? I mean, how do we apply those concepts to much larger? Uh,

April Rinne (22:26): Absolutely. So I get the question. Yes. Can an organization have a flux mindset? Absolutely. Yes. The key here and the book really is designed primarily for individuals because that's where this starts, but I like to remind people, organizations are simply collections of individuals. And so when you bring those together, you have not just an organization that can be flexi, but this becomes part of your organizational culture. I mean, so much of this is about how do people relate to one another and then together, how do they relate to change? And then as an organization it's built into, to design to just different processes, structures, et cetera. But yes. So start with the micro unit of the person, but then build that in organizations. I mean, at least so far organizations are still only as you could say, valuable as the people, in terms of a longevity in terms of the humanness as the people that are there.

John Jantsch (23:27): Yeah. It kind of becomes, I've got a new term for your flux ecosystem there. All right. So April tell people where they can find out more certainly about flux the book, but also your work anywhere you want to send them to connect with you.

April Rinne (23:41): So for all things flux, please head to flux, mindset dot lots, more resources, superpowers articles, et cetera. And then I also do have April rennie.com, which is more about the stuff. Not, it has a little bit of flux, but it has things like my hand stands on it. And people kind of found out that I do handstands. So they always want to know where to go for those.

John Jantsch (24:02): Awesome. Well, thanks so much for stopping by the duct tape marketing podcast. And hopefully we'll run into the next time you're in the Northwest, right? Did I read that? Is that right? Yeah. One of my daughters went to Gonzaga and so I spent for four years, I spent a lot of time in the Northwest, a beautiful area. So hopefully we'll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

April Rinne (24:20): Thank you so much, John. It's been a pleasure.

John Jantsch (24:22): All right. That wraps up another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. I want to thank you so much for tuning in, feel free to share this show. Feel free to give us reviews. You know, we love those things. Also. Did you know that we had created training, marketing training for your team? If you've got employees, if you've got a staff member that wants to learn a marketing system, how to install that marketing system in your business, check it out. It's called the certified marketing manager program from duct tape marketing. You can find it at ducttapemarketing.com and just scroll down a little and find that tab that says 'training for your team'

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network and Sendinblue.

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cultivating-wonder

Cultivating The Lost Art Of Wonder In Your Life

Marketing Podcast with Jeffrey Davis

Jeffrey DavisIn this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview Jeffrey Davis. Jeffrey is an author, team culture consultant, educator, and CEO of Tracking Wonder Consultancy. For over 25 years, he’s inspired thousands of change-makers, leaders, and creatives to unlock their best ideas through the pursuit of curiosity, innovation, and wonder. He’s also the author of a new book launching Nov. 16, 2021 – Tracking Wonder: Reclaiming a Life of Meaning and Possibility in a World Obsessed with Productivity.

Key Takeaway:

Wonder is the one radical quality that has led people from all walks of life to make their deepest dreams and wildest endeavors come to life. Wonder has remarkable effects on our resilience, our thinking, and our capacity to connect with one another.

In this episode, I talk with Jeffrey Davis, author, and CEO of Tracking Wonder Consultancy, about how the lost art of wonder can help us cultivate creativity, sustain the motivation to pursue our big ideas, navigate uncertainty and crises, deepen our relationships, and more.

Questions I ask Jeffrey Davis:

  • [1:31] Define wonder.
  • [2:57] If we are born with wonder, how do we lose it as we grow older?
  • [3:58] Do daily habits and rituals that help us with productivity numb us to change or surprise?
  • [5:17] How do you get people to see the importance of wonder in the workplace with individuals who are professionals, executives, teams, and organizations?
  • [8:24] I think that bringing wonder in as an experience into people’s lives is probably going to take some work or practice  — can you give me an example of how to do that or how to be intentional about it?
  • [14:25] How would you encourage somebody to apply this in a customer service or even a sales role?
  • [16:27] How do you handle a situation where somebody is basically faking wonder for a while?
  • [20:27] What’s the impact that you want to have on the reader or the people that take even just a kernel of this to heart?
  • [23:19] Where can people connect with you and find out more about the book itself and the work that you’re doing around wonder?

More About Jeffrey Davis:

More About Certified Marketing Manager Program Powered By Duct Tape Marketing:

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

John Jantsch (00:01): This episode of the duct tape marketing podcast is brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network. Hey, I want to give a shout out to another member of the HubSpot network, the success story podcast, hosted by Scott de Clair. It's one of the most useful podcasts in the world. Success story features Q and A sessions with successful business leaders, keynote presentations, conversations on sales marketing. Hey, and if you're a freelancer, his episode on how to make seven figures freelancing on Fiverr is a must listen to the success story podcast, wherever you get your podcasts.

John Jantsch (00:47): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Jeffrey Davis. He's an author team culture consultant, educator, and CEO of tracking wonder consultancy for over 25 years. He's inspired thousands of Changemakers leaders and creatives to unlock their best ideas through the pursuit of curiosity, innovation and wonder today, he's got a new book coming out. We're going to talk about it. It's called tracking wonder reclaiming a life of meaning and possibility in a world, obsessed with productivity. So Jeffrey, welcome to the show.

Jeffrey Davis (01:24): Thanks. It's always a pleasure to

John Jantsch (01:25): Hang out. Yeah. So, so I don't know. I'll ask a really direct question. Define wonder.

Jeffrey Davis (01:33): Yeah, that's a good starting place, right? We think we know what it is, but then we're like, oh, let's wonder about wonder. Yeah. So through my research, I've come to a more clear understanding myself of what wonder is it is a heightened state of awareness that's brought on by something unexpected that typically either delights us, disorients us or both. And I would say what the most remarkable things, qualities of wonder that it's fleeting. Sometimes it happens just for a few seconds. I cite it, you know, a deer in the woods or, you know, a sunset sometimes, you know, you hear something that just catches you by surprise from a coworker, but it has long lasting effects. And the, um, the science of wonder is kind of caught up. I've been on this trail for over 15 years when there was very little science of wonder and it's catching up really to show us the remarkable effects that has on our resilience, our thinking, and our capacity to connect with one another.

John Jantsch (02:31): So, and, and, and I'm sure you've talked about this before, and I'm certainly not the first one to bring this up, but you know, you go somewhere like, I don't know, four or five-year-old child, I've got, one of my grandkids is about, is four and it's so funny. We'll go somewhere and I'm not paying much attention. I'll hear go. Wow. And you look around, it's like, what? Wow. Yeah. So we're the point is we're born with this in like large amounts. So how do we lose it?

Jeffrey Davis (03:04): I'm so glad you said that I have a seven year old daughter and a 12 year old daughter. And they're great wonder trackers, but there are instances I have to say, John, when I'm a bit more in wonder than they are. And so wonder is not just kid stuff. It's pretty, pretty remarkable grownup stuff. So yeah. Wonder does Wayne and it wanes in part neurologically. So when we're about my older daughter's age, 12, 13 years old, our Synopsys start to prune in the brain and we don't have all of those, you know, great connections going on in our brain culturally, without a doubt, particularly in United States culture and even the Scottish Irish, which is part of my heritage, but the hard work ethic, we have a cultural bias against wonder and it's, it doesn't seem productive. And yet the irony of wonders that it, it can help us become remarkably productive without burning out or, or burning bridges.

John Jantsch (03:58): You know, one of the things, since you mentioned productivity, and obviously it's, it's in the title or subtitle of the book as well is one of the ways we are more productive or at least I find myself more is, is through habits, through rituals, through things that I do every day. And, and, you know, I wonder while, while on one hand that makes us very productive or can make us feel productive. It certainly numbs us a bit, I suppose, to, to change or to surprise doesn't it. Okay.

Jeffrey Davis (04:28): Oh, this is such a great question. Nobody's really touched on this. So rituals, which I have them in the morning to make me very intentional, I have some specific to wonder, but the irony is just what you said is that the ritual can become routine. And then it just becomes this sort of default expectation. And we're wired the neuroscientists call this, uh, re network of the brain, the default mode network we're wired. And so to sort of categorize things, get in routine so we can move on with our life. But the challenge for us in these times is to disrupt our default routines. Our default ways of thinking are, are even our default rituals, right, is to kind of make your ritual spicy, so to speak every once in a while.

John Jantsch (05:18): So you ride a lot, you work with it's an in, as I read your bio, you work with a lot of creatives and have for a long time. And I think certainly, uh, you know, a true creative has no problem with this idea of, of wonder that I have to get in my state where I can be creative and not just be in my kind of rat race state. So how do you first off, I know you're not saying that that's who needs this, that's your that's who it's for, but, so how do you get people past that idea of saying, oh, well, that's fine for those people that we don't know what they're doing over there anyway, you know, and bring it into the workplace

Jeffrey Davis (05:56): At such a great, because that is also a lot of my work with professionals and executives and teams and organizations. So I will say I was heartened to see that the Harvard business review recently published an article from a couple of researchers that seem to get at the premise of our body of work about why managers and leaders need to protect their sense of wonder and our times. So, one way to think about what wonder does and how it benefits us in this world of work that has just shifted for everybody, is that experiences of one. So what the science of wonder is showing us that is that if we can habitually recall share, and foster experiences of wonder that by doing that, even in the workplace, right, even with team leaders, recalling sharing and fostering experiences of wonder these experiences actually boost our capacity to focus in these times of rampant distraction, they actually build our resilience.

Jeffrey Davis (07:01): And I won't go into all of the science of how it's now demonstrated to do so, but it's as good for us as good rest and good, good diet. It gives us resilience to keep working for the marathon, not just the sprint and wonder is remarkably pro social. So this is the beautiful part. I think of my research in our times is it's not just for the solo creative, you know, getting inspired with their ideas and some studio it's pro-social, it actually can make us more generous with one another. It can also let me see if I can put it in this context too. It helps us see each other again, in a new way. So you were talking about, you know, how rituals can become a habit. We can become habituated with one another. Can't wait, right. People, you know, attend any team meeting. And you're like, ah, there goes so-and-so again. Oh yeah. We've sort of box each other in wonder, has this remarkable ability to disrupt our biased ways of thinking about a problem of seeing each other and even if seeing ourselves.

John Jantsch (08:11): Yeah, it's funny. I live on the edge of a national forest and, you know, a deer walks by and I'm like, oh, whatever, another deer. And so, so, so how, you know, how do we, so I'm sure there are a lot of people that say, okay, yeah, this is a nice concept, Jeffery. I don't disagree with the concept. We need more wonder in our life, but, but I'm sure that there are a lot of pragmatic people that are saying, give me the example of, you know, how I bring, wonder as an experience or, you know, how, how do I, how am I intentional about this? Because I think that it's probably one of those things that is going to take some work or some practice for people.

Jeffrey Davis (08:47): It will. Exactly. So tracking wonder is a skillset and a set of practices that we all can learn and, and sorta reclaim that birthright as you alluded to earlier, right? We're all born wide-eyed with wonder, and we can actually practice, right. Just this, you know, leaders want to practice becoming compassionate. We can practice, uh, fostering and tracking wonder. So yeah, in the book, I lay out what I call six facets of wonder six sides of wonder. So we can really start to identify, identify them in our lives and, and figure out how to foster more of them. So there's openness and curiosity are two really important facets that we can develop the skill set for more actively and regularly to approach any challenges, more creatively instead of reactively, say for instance, a challenge comes up for you. The natural response might be fight or flight, right?

Jeffrey Davis (09:47): Very reactive is this part of how we're wired, but instead if we can practice pausing that reactivity and get curious and ask really intentionally curious questions like what's going on here and this challenge, this problem, how could we think about this differently? That's just one activity, right? The next pair of facets are bewilderment and hope. These are really important facets of wonder that demonstrably build our resilience and our fortitude to navigate adversity and challenge, which I think the whole globe needs right now. So sometimes just to when, when we're feeling down or like in a dark place, whether as a team or as an individual, we can catch that natural darkness. We don't need to bypass it, but we can do things like stepping outdoors, taking a five minute walk, taking a breather, looking up at the sky. So to speak wherever you live, there is sky.

Jeffrey Davis (10:51): And you're probably going to come away with a slightly different perspective than, than you did five minutes before the second, the third pair of facets are connection and admiration. And these are really central. And at the heart of your brilliance, which is marketing connection and admiration are the facets of wonder that are very pro-social and allow us really to see one another in a new way. So when we come in conflict, which is very common, whether we're remote working remotely or in the workplace, we, when we come in conflict, there are a number of things you could do. Just pause in the moment of conflict, detach yourself from the situation and actually practice seeing the person in front of you or the person you're in conflict with differently, new, like recognizing this person should probably not intentionally harming you or trying to make your life miserable.

Jeffrey Davis (11:45): So let me just pause here for a moment to John DOE and say for the teams that I work with, we just start first, we start with wonder at work assessment, just to kind of see where each team member is and those different facets and other areas. And then sometimes we'll start with just a few wonder interventions that we figure out together. So what w what can we do at the beginning of the day or the beginning of a meeting differently? So for instance, team managers now simply sometimes start off a meeting with, okay, everyone share, just share a small highlight from the past week, or share something with us that kind of blew your mind, that forces you to actually not just focus on the negative or the problems, but actually see these beautiful moments that were actually quite meaningful and can really bond us.

Jeffrey Davis (12:37): The next set of interventions would be in the middle of the day. This is really, really important that all the research bears out is how to break better in order to work well. So sometimes it requires timing. Sometimes it requires a team agreeing at a certain time of day to break together, better step out doors, step away from the screen. I know remote teams, you're like, okay, we all have to go outdoors and prove it to get away from the screen. And then finally, at the end of the day, or the end of the week, a certain, I guess you could call them rituals. We call them wonder interventions, where you come together and reflect what was the most meaningful for you in this past week. And so those beginning, middle and end wonder interventions are usually just a starting place for starting, you know, for really shaking up the default ways of working and working together. This

John Jantsch (13:33): So did the duct tape marketing podcast is brought to you by Sendinblue and all in one digital marketing platform, empowering small businesses to build stronger customer relationships through end to end digital marketing campaigns. They support businesses successfully navigating their digital presence in order to strengthen their customer relationships, send him blue allows you to create captivating and personalized email campaigns, custom landing pages, sign up forms, automated workflows, transactional messaging, CRM, and more, and best of all, duct tape marketing listeners can click on sendinblue.com/ducttapemarketing to sign up for a free trial. And if you use the promo code on that page, duct tape, you'll get 50% off for your first three months, either on a light or premium account.

John Jantsch (14:25): All right. So as I hear you talk about this, I want to break it into two ways that I think that I think most people will, will logically jump as a, just listening to you to describe that this is culture. This is stuff we're going to work on in our organization. And I think a lot of people are open to that idea. I mean, I think everybody realizes the value that how would you apply this? Or how would you encourage somebody to apply this in a say, customer service or even sales role? So not to an internal team, but, but to actually bring this level of empathy out into the external world,

Jeffrey Davis (15:00): I love that you asked that in, in marketing and, and in sales. So let's just start with openness and curiosity because you and I both know that we all can get into our default habits of sales and marketing. Like we learn best practices and, and we have certain biases, right. That are laid out in psychology. That if it worked one time, well, it should work a second, the third time. Right? So by just practicing some openness and curiosity, getting really curious and saying, Hmm, how could I approach the sales call just a little differently? And then let's jump to connection. How could I actually attune to this person, ask some curious questions, genuine, curious questions, right? Because you know, the heart of marketing quite often is listening. Yeah. And really getting some resonance with what's happening with the person on the other side of your sales call and then establishing some genuine, some genuine connection. It has to be, it has to be genuine really for it, for it to work.

John Jantsch (16:10): Right. And I think that's sometimes one of the dangers when people, people are out there expressing this idea of, we have to bring more curiosity and we have to listen. I mean, these, these are concepts that people in some cases get shoved down their throat. That that's what we need to be doing here. But I mean, how do you, how do you, how do you handle a situation where somebody is basically faking wonder for a while?

Jeffrey Davis (16:36): Um, that requires, that requires some self knowledge. So there is, there is a sort of untapped or in the book, that's at the heart of this body of work. And it can start to sound like a little woo. But I grounded in classical philosophy from the Greek thinkers, the Greek thinker said that suggested that I'm talking Aristotle Plato, Socrates, not to get too wonky on your audience, but that we're each born with this sort of force of character. That's unique to each of us, that's distinct to each of us. And they called it your on your, your genius as it, as it were. And it's unique to each of us, but we were born forgetting it. But if we remember it at certain times and bring it to our word, bring it to our sales calls, it will guide us toward our best work in the world at whatever stage in our life.

Jeffrey Davis (17:31): So we do a lot of work with that. So one thing that the salesperson has to do their own self work and just like really acknowledge who they are at heart and what makes them come alive in sales. My father was a brilliant salesperson in the Dallas media world. And I asked him one time, like first ad, what do you do? And he said, well, I sell air because it was radio advertising. And then I said, why are you so good at what you do? And I always deliver what I promise and I really care about people. And so I've always remembered that. So, you know, the sales person who's trying to fake, it has to really do the self knowledge to say, okay, really? What is the genius part of me that makes me come alive in sales? Why do I care about sales in the first place? And can I see the genius in the person on the other side of the sales call? That's a really, now that can sound a little woo, but it's a really important practice that probably any leader or manager who's successful knows they have to do. They have to practice seeing the person on the other side differently.

John Jantsch (18:37): You talk about this, this idea of admiration, and there's a line, uh, to quote, is the experience a surprising love for someone else's excellence? I think that's probably one of the, we, I think anyone who has done that has experienced the value of doing that, but it's also seems to be in our, in our obsession to climb whatever it is. We're climbing seems to be one of the hardest things to do.

Jeffrey Davis (19:01): Wow. I'm so glad you, that is the admiration chapter I have to say is my favorite chapter in the book. And I feel like it's one of the most important, and I agree. I, and that's why it's the sixth. I think it is the hardest in our culture. We seem to admire big celebrities and heroes from afar, but we seem hard pressed to admire the person we work with to see them differently for the leaders to see the employees differently and admire their grit and their, you know, their character, but right. It is admiration is a surprising love for someone else's excellence and character or craft. And so again, that this is that practice of really actively practicing, seeing the other person differently. This is a big game changer in culture, but also even for the small business owner who gets irritated with their customers. So I've worked with small businesses before and I've listened to how they described their customers. And I'm like, okay, we need to do just a little subtle admiration work.

John Jantsch (20:07): You've been working on this idea tracking, wonder for quite some time, you know, obviously you've, you've brought it together through, you've referred to it as body of work, your body of work of research and experience in doing this work. So if, and this answer, I assume, will change in a year from now, but right now, right, this is a book is coming out. What's the impact that you want to have on, on the, on the reader or the people that, that take even a, just a kernel of this.

Jeffrey Davis (20:35): Yeah, thanks for that question. I really want this book to be the antidote to quitting. And we're in this season of quitting nationally in the United States, but I also mean quitting the antidote to quitting on our dreams and the antidote to quitting on our ideals. We have some big challenges ahead individually and collectively, and I really want this book to serve, to catalyze us, to keep reaching for possibilities.

John Jantsch (21:01): Yeah. I th I feel like there's a, you know, we went through a 10, I want to rehash the pandemic on every show, but I seem to get, get there one way or another. We, uh, went through the spirit where everybody was like, I almost felt like there was an energy around, how do we have to change? How do we have to shift? How do we have to help each other? And now we're 18 months in and the slog has just kind of become, you know, something nobody's talking about anymore, but we're all still experiencing that, that, you know, that is, you know, you talk about this great resignation, you know, that people talk about. I think that, I think that's why we're coming to a head in that

Jeffrey Davis (21:34): I do too. I appreciate your saying that too. I remember that that spring of 2020 and my girls were home and I was actually quite ecstatic that they were, we were camping in the backyard and, you know, I don't want to make light of the situation because there was real suffering on our part and on so many people's parts, but there was this sort of awakening, so to speak. And that facet of wonder called bewilderment. I think the whole globe was experiencing it, but you're right. All of a sudden then we have to sustain hope, right? That we are going to continue to learn. What's been really exposed, right? That's been broken in so many ways in our institutions and our, our old habits personally, and collectively that I really do want this book and what ripples out of this book to serve for us to really stay open and keep questioning the status quo, whether that's the status quo in our own lives or the status quo in our workplaces, really questioning our own assumptions.

Jeffrey Davis (22:32): I'll just say I had, I was talking with a client, who's a president of a company and he was in bewilderment. Betty said, you know, what is our new metrics for productivity? We never had a good metric. And so how am I going to measure like the 250 employees coming back where I have to, you know, say, give him credit. When the pandemic came blocked down and so forth, he was like, okay, we need to take care of home first for our people. And then we'll take care of work. But now that people are coming back into the workplace, I just love that question because he's staying open. John, he's staying open to the questions as opposed to go into the default answers and, and immediate closure.

John Jantsch (23:19): So Jennifer tell people where they can connect with you and obviously find out more about the book itself and the work that you're doing around wonder.

Jeffrey Davis (23:26): Yeah. Thanks. This has been a real pleasure. They can go to tracking wonder.com. They can also go to tracking wonder dot.com/podcast bonus. And we'll let, we'll have a wonder at work assessment they can take and maybe a couple of other bonuses for your listeners.

John Jantsch (23:40): Awesome. Well, I appreciate it is obviously a great having to stop by the duct tape marketing podcast. And hopefully we can run into each other one of these days soon out there on the road. I hope so too. John take care.

John Jantsch (23:52): All right. That wraps up another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. I want to thank you so much for tuning in, feel free to share this show. Feel free to give us reviews. You know, we love those things. Also, did you know that we had created training, marketing training for your team? If you've got employees, if you've got a staff member that wants to learn a marketing system, how to install that marketing system in your business, check it out. It's called the certified marketing manager program from duct tape marketing. You can find it at duct tape, marketing.com and just scroll down a little and find that tab that says training for your team.

 

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network and Sendinblue.

HubSpot Podcast Network is the audio destination for business professionals who seek the best education and inspiration on how to grow a business.

 

 

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